Please explain what is wrong with my relativistic momentum problem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem related to relativistic momentum in the context of a collision between two identical balls. Participants explore the calculations of momentum before and after the collision, particularly when changing frames of reference using the relativistic velocity addition formula. The scope includes theoretical reasoning and mathematical reasoning regarding momentum conservation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario involving two balls colliding, with their velocities represented in terms of horizontal (a) and vertical (b) components.
  • Another participant suggests that the relativistic momentum formula, which includes the Lorentz factor (gamma), may not have been applied correctly in the calculations.
  • A different participant points out that the velocities of the balls will differ in the new reference frame, implying that the beta values (velocity as a fraction of the speed of light) are not the same for both particles.
  • One participant emphasizes the need to use conservation of momentum to find the final velocities and suggests that an error must have occurred if momentum is not conserved.
  • Another participant expresses that they are trying to verify momentum conservation based on experimental facts, indicating that their calculations show a discrepancy.
  • There is a discussion about the correct application of the gamma factors in the momentum calculations, with some participants suggesting that different gammas should be used for different components of velocity.
  • One participant acknowledges a mistake in their calculations regarding the gamma factor for one of the balls, indicating that they had not accounted for all components of velocity.
  • Another participant requests that the formulas be presented in LaTeX for clarity, indicating that the current presentation makes it difficult to understand the calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of the relativistic momentum formula and the correct use of gamma factors. There is no consensus on the source of the discrepancy in momentum calculations, and the discussion remains unresolved as participants continue to explore the problem.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the calculations involve assumptions about the velocities and frames of reference, and there are unresolved issues regarding the correct application of the relativistic velocity addition formula. The discussion reflects a complex interplay of theoretical concepts and mathematical expressions that may not be fully clarified.

  • #121
DaleSpam said:
Sure there is. You want to see if they simplify. If it didn't check the terms under the square root then you would complain that it didn't simplify things under square roots.

Do me a favor, please do the calculation in post 100 by hand, it is not very complicated. To make things easier, calculate ONLY the y component of the momentum, no need to do the x component. This halves the number of terms. Post the LaTeX. Please point out where you needed to "check the terms under the square roots".
 
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  • #122
If you don't look under the square roots then you get:

$$-\frac{2 a m}{\left(B^2+1\right) g}+\frac{b m}{\left(1-B^2\right) g y}-\frac{b
m}{\left(B^2+1\right) h y}$$

Where y and B are defined as in post 100 and $$g=\sqrt{1-\frac{b^2}{\left(1-B^2\right)^2 c^2 y^2}}$$ and $$ h= \sqrt{1-\frac{\frac{4 a^2}{\left(B^2+1\right)^2}+\frac{b^2}{\left(B^2+1\right)^2
y^2}}{c^2}}$$

So you need to check the terms under the square roots pretty quick.
 
  • #123
DaleSpam said:
If you don't look under the square roots then you get:

$$-\frac{2 a m}{\left(B^2+1\right) g}+\frac{b m}{\left(1-B^2\right) g y}-\frac{b
m}{\left(B^2+1\right) h y}$$

Where y and B are defined as in post 100 and $$g=\sqrt{1-\frac{b^2}{\left(1-B^2\right)^2 c^2 y^2}}$$ and $$ h= \sqrt{1-\frac{\frac{4 a^2}{\left(B^2+1\right)^2}+\frac{b^2}{\left(B^2+1\right)^2
y^2}}{c^2}}$$

So you need to check the terms under the square roots pretty quick.

Please prove that I need "to check the terms under the square root", this is all I asked. You did not finish the calculations, I did and I did not have to check any radicand.
 
  • #124
Prove what? I thought we were looking at the results of FullSimplify.
 
  • #125
DaleSpam said:
Prove what?

that one needs to check any of the radicands for being positive.
 
  • #126
They don't simplify otherwise.
 
  • #127
DaleSpam said:
They don't simplify otherwise.

Continue the calculations, show that this is the case.
 
  • #128
Continue what calculations? I finished and posted it. That is as simple as the expression goes without additional information.
 
  • #129
DaleSpam said:
I do have some simple Mathematica code for doing special relativity exercises. It is based on 4-vectors, so it is rather convenient to use for momentum and other similar problems.
Here is a copy of the code. Use at your own risk :smile:
 

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