News Please no Bush-bashing, America bashing

[El Hombre Invisible]

Not confusing if you actually read my post where it clearly states "in the politics forum", I didn't say anything about "this thread". You are too new to the forum to know the long history of bashing Americans here.

It's not the only country bashed, it tends to go in spurts.

It's presense here was confusing, not its content. I think it has confused matters. You gave the impression Americans were being victimised on this thread by the very nature of your comment being in it, and now the expected onslaught of the swivelcahir-militia have started to bring the debate down to the level of reactionary xenophobia. I'm not dissing you - you seem cool.

I was thinking of a joke involving 'bashing' and 'spurts' but damn my better judgement prevailed.

 

[Evo]

El Hombre Invisible, a couple of people in this thread thought I was fingering them and I'm not, it's just something that has been around for awhile, not nearly as bad as it was some months back.

I'm not dissing you - you seem cool.

I'm draconian according to one member (after I locked their thread). Oh well.

I was thinking of a joke involving 'bashing' and 'spurts' but damn my better judgement prevailed.

We could use some levity. Or on second thought...

 

[Evo]

Evo, Can you provide specific examples of American bashing in line with the guidelines posted for this thread which you have vocally supported.

There are literally thousands and would require too much time to find since there are no keywords to search on. I explained in my post to El Hombre Invisble. You'll have to trust me on this or go back and read through 20,000 posts. It's all there.

 

[whozum]

I usually stay out of politics, this is the first bit that caught my eye and I have to say you couldn't have said it better.

I have to say that I am offended by the amount of blatant anti-American sentiments and bashing going on here (in the politics forum). I am about as middle of the road as you can get politically, but I am really getting tired of it. Show me a country that is perfect, that has no corruption, no politicians with an agenda, that hasn't used whatever power they have (if they have any) for their own benefit. I don't think we're perfect, no country is.

 

[Evo]

I wasn't looking for them all, just a couple of representative samples. I've looked myself but couldn't find any. If there are literally thousands to pick from then surely it should take but a few minutes of your time to substantiate your claim. Or is this "Do as I say, don't do as I do?"

Actually a quick search came up with a few member's posts and showing them as examples would probably be embarrasing to them, so no, I'm not going to list member's posts. If you are curious you won't have too much trouble finding the posts. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is stay tuned, there will be more.

 

[Evo]

p.s. Preferably by people who are currently posting on this thread as the accusation has been leveled at us

Not by me, go back and read my post.

 

[Evo]

p.s. Just read your last mail. If it isn't referring to this thread then why post it here? Sorry if this seems pedantic but the inference appeared to be that we were on an America bashing expedition

Which post are you referring to?

 

[Evo]

I usually stay out of politics, this is the first bit that caught my eye and I have to say you couldn't have said it better.

Well at least ONE person likes me. Thank you whozum.

(where did you say to send the money?)

 

[vanesch]

And don't worry - I won't call you a racist for having an anti-America bias where you see and point out the "arrogant American" stereotype.

I'm consistent: yes, I know that there are some anti-American stereotypes that are justified. However, though what you might consider arrogance or paranoia I consider simple cockiness or confidence: we're on top and we know it.

That's exactly what I wanted to say: "you're on top and you know it". You're on top concerning GNP and the military ok, but that doesn't make you guys superior in everything, with no possibility of mistake. It's exactly what I wanted to illustrate in my post about the guys being sportive and thinking they were "the best", them being pissed because it didn't impress me.
Now, happily, I know that not all Americans think that way, and most importantly:

That's interesting - right after saying I made a mistake for saying something, you said exactly the same thing!

You misunderstood me. I cited a property of an often found mentality as well with americans as with the french. And again, not ALL americans or french suffer from it, but it is an often found characteristic. BUT I DIDN'T SAY I WAS ANTI-AMERICAN FOR THAT REASON. I cited the property as a possible explanation of the PARANOIA that some of you have to see anti-Americanism everywhere, from the moment we say that Bush made a mistake, or that the war in Iraq was a failure, or this, or that criticism, concerning some specific american action. I didn't cite the property to say I hated it or so. But, again, if you're convinced of your own god-status, and mere mortals dare to say that you made a mistake, then that quickly turns into blasphemy.

You said you were anti-french and even proud of it. I think that such a statement is a mistake.

France's "coalition of the unwilling" politics pisses me off. And why shouldn't it? The very concept is abhorrent: gaining power by being an opposer of everything another power does.

Now, let me pretend to be as naive as you, when you claim that American foreign politics is not about power games (as any foreign politics of any country is), but "to bring the good to the rest of the world". Let me pretend that France wanted, by all means, to stop a friend from doing something very stupid, and that it wasn't a power game. Like taking away the car keys out of the pocket of a drunken friend. Ok that's a too rose-tinted view of reality of course, but there was something to it. Most people in the street really were convinced that you guys were going to do something extremely stupid. As far as I'm concerned, I think they were right. Of course, you pretend the "jury still to be out" until YOU are right, but that's normally classified then as a non-falsifiable statement.

 

[chound]

I thought America wuz a republic not a democracy since you directly elect the head of the state

 

[chound]

"The right of voters to elect more than 80,000 public officials"
In India in one state(Karnataka) 75,200 men and women are elected. Our democracy just does not deal with state and nation wide. It has 3 tiers all together. Nation - State - District & Village. For each village there is a group of elected representatives who look after that particular village. Considering the no. of total villages in India the figure would sky rocket!

 

[chound]

I have to say that I am offended by the amount of blatant anti-American sentiments and bashing going on here (in the politics forum). I am about as middle of the road as you can get politically, but I am really getting tired of it. Show me a country that is perfect, that has no corruption, no politicians with an agenda, that hasn't used whatever power they have (if they have any) for their own benefit. I don't think we're perfect, no country is.

True! I guess you could take S'pore(for no corruption, etc.) as an example but its probably too insignificant, small.

 

[chound]

Now, imagine that there are mad dogs running around the house, and they've bitten already one child. There's also a bee hive at the back of the garden. So you decide to go and kick with your boots in the bee hive because you have "evidence that the bees are buddies with the mad dogs and are planning a massive attack on your children". You ask your neighbour to help you to kick with your boots in the bee hive, and he tells you not only that he will not do so, but that he thinks that that is a bad idea because everybody will now get bees on his hand ; moreover he tells you the story about the dogs being friends with the bees, he doesn't believe it ; he'd rather go with you after the dogs and let the bees alone. You tell him he's a stinking bastard, you will not talk to him again, and you go out kicking in the beehive. Don't you think that, after you've been stung all over (and the mad dogs too, so they get even nastier) that the neighbour would watch you through the window and have a good laugh with your face ?

A prequel to this:
You give flowers and food to the bees so that they can grow and sting others and biscuits to the mad dogs so that they can bite others.
They get bored of biting others and since you have stopped giving them more food they come to get your children.
A few years later... the story from vanesch's post

 

[Danger]

Have you been to Montreal?

You are kidding, right? I admit that I didn't visit it until '67 for Expo, but since my dad's side of the family is all in the Ottawa valley, I was there every 2 years after that until I moved back here in '78. It's one of the most beautiful and culturally diverse cities in Canada.

It really feels like they want to be part of France. If nothing else, Frenh Canadians want independence from Canada for largely cultural reasons.

Your understanding of Quebec culture is about as good as your understanding of Europe. There is a vocal minority (essentially the same as your 'Moral Majority', except that ours make sense) of radical francophone Quebecois who want to separate from Canada. They do not, for the most part, want to join France. They want to become an 'independent' country that remains within our borders, uses our currency and military, and yet not be subject to our laws. As for the 'distinct society' status that they already have, I believe that it only strengthens our nation. We were originally settled by the French, and some scraps with the English ensued, and we ended up multicultural. Since I'm not an expert on Quebec, I would suggest that you discuss the matter with IanSmith.

 

[vanesch]

True! I guess you could take S'pore(for no corruption, etc.) as an example but its probably too insignificant, small.

And they beat you up with sticks if you eat chewing gum

Everything has its price...

 

[vanesch]

A prequel to this:
You give flowers and food to the bees so that they can grow and sting others and biscuits to the mad dogs so that they can bite others.
They get bored of biting others and since you have stopped giving them more food they come to get your children.
A few years later... the story from vanesch's post

I think you missed the essence of my analogy

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

El Hombre Invisible, a couple of people in this thread thought I was fingering them
...
We could use some levity.

And lo, you provided it!

 

[Andy]

Origionally posted by Evo
Actually a quick search came up with a few member's posts and showing them as examples would probably be embarrasing to them, so no, I'm not going to list member's posts. If you are curious you won't have too much trouble finding the posts. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is stay tuned, there will be more.

lol, i will own up now! but that was back in the days of entropy and mr robin parsons!

 

[Evo]

lol, i will own up now! but that was back in the days of entropy and mr robin parsons!

No, I had a few others in mind.

Where the heck is jimmy p? I'm about ready to disown him and adopt you instead.

 

[russ_watters]

Russ hasn't posted for a while. I guess he's gone off to lick his wounds or maybe he's just fallen off the limb he climbed out on. .

Russ has a job to do and frankly, this thread isn't even as important to me as the ones in the other forums. The politics forum provides me with some entertainment, but I care very little about what goes on here. I care even less about the opinions of me of people who don't even know me.

 

[russ_watters]

No-one in this thrad has actually posted anything along the lines of "I dislike the Americans".

Yes, I know. Very few people are as up-front about their biases as I am. They prefer pot-shots and insinuations to coming right out and stating their opinion explicitly. Its easier that way - when you don't make a specific statement, there is nothing to back up.

You are the only person here to actually dislike an entire nation based on whatever limited experience of them you have had.

Once again, that isn't what I said. Please go back and reread it because you have misrepresented it in every response so far.

 

[russ_watters]

There is a vocal minority (essentially the same as your 'Moral Majority', except that ours make sense) of radical francophone Quebecois who want to separate from Canada.

I didn't say it was a majority position, I just said it exists.

They do not, for the most part, want to join France. They want to become an 'independent' country that remains within our borders, uses our currency and military, and yet not be subject to our laws.

Ok... but why? Its cultural, isn't it? That's why Quebec is bilingual, isn't it?

 

[russ_watters]

Just in case anyone missed it the first time...

Everyone has biases, guys. Everyone has preconceptions. Everyone buys into stereotypes to one extent or another.

Russ I hate to be the one to break it to you, but they don't. You are one of a select few.

This is better than Dilbert, thanks.

 

[vanesch]

Its cultural, isn't it? That's why Quebec is bilingual, isn't it?

I don't know so much about Quebec, but my small native country (Belgium) also has 2 cultures having to live together, the minority (about 40%) being french speaking; and indeed, a serious problem with those people is that they have a kind of superiority feeling about their own linguistic culture which makes it harder for them to learn the other one. This resulted in a very complicated government structure for instance.
So I have more reasons to be anti-french than anti-american, if that were a reason. But again, I think it is silly to be anti-"an entire nation".
French speaking people are quite chauvinist about their culture and language... I know in fact only one other language and culture of which the native speakers often have the same attitude (no, it is not the Germans, and not the Spanish either) However, it has an advantage too. If you speak their language and respect their culture, they suddenly become very very kind and you are more than welcome with them. So it is very easy to get integrated with french speaking people: just speak french (even with errors). That cannot be said about any other culture, where you remain a barbarian for ever :-)

 

[Danger]

That's why Quebec is bilingual, isn't it?

The whole country is bilingual. Quebec just happens to be predominately francophone, and has language laws to help keep it that way, but only a very few individuals are impolite about it. It's like comparing the number of Mafia members to the total population of Italy.

 

[Smurf]

French speaking people are quite chauvinist about their culture and language... I know in fact only one other language and culture of which the native speakers often have the same attitude (no, it is not the Germans, and not the Spanish either) However, it has an advantage too. If you speak their language and respect their culture, they suddenly become very very kind and you are more than welcome with them. So it is very easy to get integrated with french speaking people: just speak french (even with errors). That cannot be said about any other culture, where you remain a barbarian for ever :-)

I think the French are very much misunderstood about this. It's indeed true that they can act Chauvanist, but I've never had a problem with them (during my three years living there), and I'll tell you why. I wouldn't call them arrogant, they don't insist on your speaking French, as long as you try, in other words, respect their culture. The French have to put up with huge amouts of arrogant and annoying british tourists all the time, and I'm sure you'll find that indeed the bigger the city, the more chauvanist the people will seem (Paris is the worst of course). When I first moved there I didn't speak barely any french, but the people would still be very nice to me even when I'd start conversations with "Bonjour... est que tu parle anglais?" (and if you don't know what that means it's no wonder you get heat from the french).

Meh, my point kind of got lost somewhere, basicly I don't think they act any worse than any other culture does towards foreigners. I don't think it'd be fair to expect anything more.

P.S. This isn't directed at you Vanesch, I'm just leading on from your post.

 

[Smurf]

I didn't say it was a majority position, I just said it exists.

Actually your exact words were "Frenh Canadians want to become an independant country". So not only did you imply they were a majority, you generalized that an absolute 100% wanted that. You need only look at the fact that the last referendum to leave Canada failed to realize that's false.

Ok... but why? Its cultural, isn't it? That's why Quebec is bilingual, isn't it?

Why? They feel the language (and partially the culture) is threatened by the overwhelming majority of anglophones. A really bad answer to the problem if you ask me.

And yes, as Danger said, the whole country is (officially) bilingual.

 

[vanesch]

I wouldn't call them arrogant, they don't insist on your speaking French, as long as you try, in other words, respect their culture.
...
P.S. This isn't directed at you Vanesch, I'm just leading on from your post.

I think indeed we're making the same point.

 

[Smurf]

How did we get here from Anti-Americanism?

 

[PerennialII]

Yes, I know. Very few people are as up-front about their biases as I am. They prefer pot-shots and insinuations to coming right out and stating their opinion explicitly. Its easier that way - when you don't make a specific statement, there is nothing to back up. Once again, that isn't what I said. Please go back and reread it because you have misrepresented it in every response so far.

Ok, I'm trying to grasp some of the differences here. Why being not "as upfront about their biases" isn't the good thing here ... Being able to focus on specific issues rather than immediately drawing borders and making it an issue you need to "win" with us against others mentality should be the whole point of discussion (and this makes Art's statement belonging to something else than Dilbert, or then it would make up a good strip anyways). This is something that I've a hard time understanding especially in "anti-Americanism" and related conversations, since if you've an opinion, that isn't anti anything but an opinion (a perception being repeated a great number of times in this thread). And an opinion is formed on the basis of "biases" for sure, but being able to discuss and reform your opinions - and not making it personal and drawing e.g. nation spanning parallels - is the kind of "non-biasness" we're talking here. Doesn't sound too difficult IMHO, it's the element of any meaningful discourse. How can't we get over this or what is breaking this part of the communication ?