Possibilities for the side and angle of the triangle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the possible values for the sides and angles of triangle ABC, given specific parameters: side \( c = 18 \), angle \( \alpha = \frac{\pi}{6} \), and the length of the median through vertex C as 5. Participants explore various mathematical approaches, including the median formula, the cosine law, and the sine law, while addressing potential limitations and ambiguities in their calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines the derivation of \( a^2 \) and \( b^2 \) using the median and cosine law, leading to a quadratic equation for \( a^2 \).
  • Another participant questions whether the use of \( \arcsin \) adequately captures all possible angles \( \gamma \), suggesting that oblique triangles may be overlooked.
  • Further contributions emphasize the need to consider both \( \gamma = \arcsin\left(\frac{9}{a}\right) \) and \( \gamma = \pi - \arcsin\left(\frac{9}{a}\right) \) to account for all solutions.
  • Some participants express confusion about the handling of square roots in the derivation of \( a \) and whether any solutions were lost in the process.
  • Visual representations of the triangle configurations are provided, indicating that \( \gamma \) could exceed \( \frac{\pi}{2} \) in certain cases.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the completeness of the angle solutions derived from the sine law, with some asserting that the initial approach may miss valid configurations. The discussion remains unresolved as participants explore different interpretations and implications of the sine function.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the sine function has multiple solutions in the context of triangle angles, and the implications of angle restrictions are discussed. The derivation steps and assumptions made during calculations are acknowledged as potentially leading to different interpretations of the results.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

We have the triangle ABC with $c=18$, $\alpha=\frac{\pi}{6}$ and the median through $C$ has the length $5$. I want to determine all the possibilities for $a$ and $\gamma$.

I have done the following:

From the median we have the following:
$$m_c=\sqrt{\frac{2a^2+2b^2-c^2}{4}}\Rightarrow m_c^2=\frac{2a^2+2b^2-c^2}{4} \Rightarrow 4m_c^2=2a^2+2b^2-c^2 \\ \Rightarrow 4\cdot 25=2a^2+2b^2-18^2 \Rightarrow 2a^2+2b^2=100+324 \Rightarrow 2a^2+2b^2=424 \\ \Rightarrow a^2+b^2=212 \Rightarrow b^2=212-a^2$$

From the cosine law we have that \begin{align*}&a^2=b^2+c^2-2\cdot b\cdot c\cdot \cos \alpha \\ & \Rightarrow a^2=212-a^2+c^2-2\sqrt{212-a^2}\cdot c\cdot \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2} \\ & \Rightarrow 2a^2=212+324-18\sqrt{3}\sqrt{212-a^2} \\ & \Rightarrow 2a^2=536-18\sqrt{3}\sqrt{212-a^2} \\ & \Rightarrow a^2=268-9\sqrt{3}\sqrt{212-a^2} \\ & \Rightarrow 9\sqrt{3}\sqrt{212-a^2}=268-a^2 \\ & \Rightarrow \left (9\sqrt{3}\sqrt{212-a^2}\right )^2=\left (268-a^2\right )^2 \\ & \Rightarrow 81\cdot 3\cdot \left (212-a^2\right )=71824-536a^2+a^4 \\ & \Rightarrow 243\cdot \left (212-a^2\right )=71824-536a^2+a^4 \\ & \Rightarrow 51516-243a^2=71824-536a^2+a^4 \\ & \Rightarrow a^4-293a^2+20308=0 \\ & \Rightarrow \left (a^2\right )^2-293\left (a^2\right )+20308=0 \\ & \Rightarrow a^2=\frac{-(-293)\pm \sqrt{(-293)^2-4\cdot 1\cdot 20308}}{2\cdot 1} \\ & \Rightarrow a^2=\frac{293\pm \sqrt{85849 -81232 }}{2} \\ & \Rightarrow a^2=\frac{293\pm \sqrt{4617 }}{2} \\ & \Rightarrow a^2=\frac{293\pm 9\sqrt{57}}{2} \\ & \Rightarrow a=\frac{293\pm 9\sqrt{57}}{2}\end{align*}

From the sine law we have that \begin{align*}&\frac{\sin\alpha}{a}=\frac{\sin \gamma}{c} \\ & \Rightarrow c\sin \alpha=a\sin \gamma \\ & \Rightarrow 18\cdot \frac{1}{2}=a\sin \gamma \\ & \Rightarrow a\sin \gamma=9 \\ & \Rightarrow \sin \gamma=\frac{9}{a} \\ & \Rightarrow \gamma =\arcsin \left (\frac{9}{a} \right ) \ \text{ with } \ a=\frac{293+ 9\sqrt{57}}{2} \ \text{ and } \ a=\frac{293- 9\sqrt{57}}{2}\end{align*} Is everything correct? Could I improve something? (Wondering)
 
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Hey mathmari! (Smile)

Since $\arcsin$ has range $[-\frac\pi 2,\frac\pi 2]$, doesn't that mean we're missing triangles with an oblique $\gamma$? (Wondering)
 
I like Serena said:
Hey mathmari! (Smile)

Since $\arcsin$ has range $[-\frac\pi 2,\frac\pi 2]$, doesn't that mean we're missing triangles with an oblique $\gamma$? (Wondering)

Ahh (Thinking)

So do we have to do something else? (Wondering)
 
mathmari said:
Ahh (Thinking)

So do we have to do something else? (Wondering)

It means that $\sin\gamma=\frac 9a \Rightarrow \gamma=\arcsin\frac 9a$ is incorrect.
The left hand side of the implication has more solutions than the right hand side.
So we have to extend the right hand side to include all solutions that the left hand side has.
We can use the restriction that $0<\gamma<\pi$ though, since it's given that $\gamma$ is an angle in a triangle. (Thinking)
 
I like Serena said:
So we have to extend the right hand side to include all solutions that the left hand side has.
We can use the restriction that $0<\gamma<\pi$ though, since it's given that $\gamma$ is an angle in a triangle. (Thinking)

Do you mean that using that restriction we extend the right hand side? (Wondering)
 
mathmari said:
Do you mean that using that restriction we extend the right hand side? (Wondering)

I mean that we should have:
$$\sin\gamma=\frac 9a\quad\Rightarrow\quad\gamma=\arcsin\frac 9a\lor\gamma=\pi-\arcsin\frac 9a$$
(Thinking)
 
mathmari said:
$$\Rightarrow a^2=\frac{293\pm 9\sqrt{57}}{2} \\ \Rightarrow a=\frac{293\pm 9\sqrt{57}}{2}$$

Didn't we lose a $\sqrt{}$ here? (Wondering)
 
I think the solutions should look like:
\begin{tikzpicture}
\def\b{(9*sqrt(3)+sqrt(19))/2};
\def\ba{(9*sqrt(3)-sqrt(19))/2};
\coordinate (A) at (0,0);
\coordinate (B) at (18,0);
\coordinate (C) at ({\b*cos(30)},{\b*sin(30)});
\coordinate (C') at ({\ba*cos(30)},{\ba*sin(30)});
\coordinate (D) at (9,0);
\draw[orange, ultra thick] (A) -- (B) -- node[above] {a'} (C') node[above] {C'} -- node[below right] {b'} cycle;
\draw[orange, ultra thick] (C') -- node[below left] {5} (D);
\draw[blue, ultra thick] (A) node[below left] {A} -- node[below, xshift=30] {c} (B) node[below right] {B} --node[above right] {a} (C) node[above] {C} -- node[above left] {b} cycle;
\draw[blue, ultra thick] (C) -- node
{5} (D) node[below] {D};
\path[blue, ultra thick] (A) -- node[above] {9} (D) -- node[above] {9} (B);
\path[blue, ultra thick] (A) node[above right, xshift=18] {$\pi/6$};
\draw[blue, thick] (A) +(1.5,0) arc (0:30:1.5);
\end{tikzpicture}

Note that $\gamma > \frac\pi 2$ in both cases. (Thinking)​
 
I like Serena said:
I mean that we should have:
$$\sin\gamma=\frac 9a\quad\Rightarrow\quad\gamma=\arcsin\frac 9a\lor\gamma=\pi-\arcsin\frac 9a$$
(Thinking)

So, in general it holds that $$\sin x=y\Rightarrow x=\arcsin y\lor x=\pi-\arcsin y$$ right? (Wondering)
I like Serena said:
Didn't we lose a $\sqrt{}$ here? (Wondering)

Oh yes (Tmi)
 
  • #10
mathmari said:
So, in general it holds that $$\sin x=y\Rightarrow x=\arcsin y\lor x=\pi-\arcsin y$$ right?

Generally, we have:
$$\sin x=y\quad\Rightarrow\quad x=\arcsin y + 2\pi k\lor x=\pi-\arcsin y + 2\pi k$$
If we know that $0<x<\pi$, we can conclude that $x=\arcsin y\lor x=\pi-\arcsin y$, and also that $y>0$. (Nerd)
 
  • #11
I like Serena said:
Generally, we have:
$$\sin x=y\quad\Rightarrow\quad x=\arcsin y + 2\pi k\lor x=\pi-\arcsin y + 2\pi k$$
If we know that $0<x<\pi$, we can conclude that $x=\arcsin y\lor x=\pi-\arcsin y$, and also that $y>0$. (Nerd)
Ahh ok! I see! Thank you so much! (Mmm)
 

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