Proper time of an accelerated frame in a external gravitational field

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of proper time in general relativity, particularly in the context of a test particle moving in an external gravitational field, such as the Schwarzschild metric. Participants explore the implications of acceleration on the proper time experienced by the particle and the relationship between coordinate time and proper time in different frames of reference.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the metric due to acceleration must be considered alongside the external gravitational field when calculating proper time.
  • Another participant asserts that there is only one metric relevant to the external gravitational field and that the metric due to acceleration is unnecessary for computing proper time.
  • There is a discussion about how to compute proper time along a worldline in a Schwarzschild geometry, with a focus on the relationship between coordinate time and proper time.
  • Some participants discuss the equivalence principle and its implications for understanding metrics in accelerated frames versus flat spacetime.
  • One participant raises a question about how an external observer would compute the metric for a free-falling frame and how acceleration affects the perceived metric.
  • There is a contention regarding the nature of the metric in flat spacetime when an observer is accelerating, with differing views on whether the spacetime remains flat or not.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of considering acceleration in the metric for calculating proper time. Some assert that only the external gravitational field's metric is relevant, while others argue that acceleration must be accounted for. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific metrics and coordinate systems, such as Schwarzschild and Rindler coordinates, but do not reach a consensus on their implications for proper time and the effects of acceleration. The discussion highlights the complexity of relating proper time to coordinate time in different frames.

  • #31
npnacho said:
thanks! i'll take a look.

Perhaps post #40 of the first thread in particular will help clear the air. I could explain it here in more detail using the geometric language intrinsic to GR but I don't know what your mathematical level is.
 
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  • #32
npnacho said:
in the SR case I've mentioned above, the time elapsed isn't propper time, because we are talking about the trip of a spaceship which is not at rest in our coordinate system... but in that case the change on the coordinate ##x^0## is the time elapsed in my point of view, right? I'm not sure about this, it's a question too.


that is the proper time measured by the guy who drives the spaceship... but I'm asking which is the elapsed time measured by the guy how is sitting at spatial infinity seeing how the spaceship goes from A to B.

There may or may not be something strictly equating to a "point of view", depending on what you think a "point of view means".

See for instance http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9508043, "Precis of General Relativity".

A method for making sure that the relativity effects are specified correctly
(according to Einstein’s General Relativity) can be described rather briefly.
It agrees with Ashby’s approach but omits all discussion of how, historically
or logically, this viewpoint was developed. It also omits all the detailed
calculations. It is merely a statement of principles.

One first banishes the idea of an “observer”.

This is basically your idea of "point of view", I think.

This idea aided Einstein in building special relativity but it is confusing and ambig
uous in general relativity. Instead one divides the theoretical landscape
into two categories.

One category is the mathematical/conceptual model of whatever is happen-
ing that merits our attention. The other category is measuring instruments
and the data tables they provide

Misner goes on to describe what the measuring instruments would be. Since this isn't GPS, it's not directly relevant, but you might imainge that measuring instruments would be actual clocks that you carry around with you, and timestamped radar signals, so that you know the time of emission and time of reception (by your local clock) of various radar signals.

You can extend this somewhat to imaginary more clocks and radar emitters that are remotely located (such as the GPS clocks, or the receipt of signals from astronomical reference stars, or perhaps even slide slightly over the line and imagine an infinite array of clocks that don't actually exist, though the later starts to blur the line of what "actual measurements" are, since they are really mental constructs.

The other part of GR, other than the measuring instruments, is the "mathematical conceptual model of whaterver is happening". This is the metric. The metric is sort of a space-time map, it assigns coordinate numbers (which in general are more or less arbitrary) to every event in space-time.

Using the metric, you can compute the path of any desired radar signal, and you can compute the proper time reading of any clock following any specified trajectory (though you need the map-coordiantes to specify the trajectory).

Your question I think relates ultimately on how you assemble a mental picture of what's going on from actual observations. There are some conventions here, but they may or may not match your intuitive idea of what a "point of view" should be. The conventions boil down to the fact that if you have a metric such that it is diag(-1,1,1,1) in some area, that in that area the coordinates used by the metric are a "local" point of view that works while you are in that neighborhood.

For instance, in the Schwarzschild map, the coordinates have this property at infinity. Hence the talk about observers at infinity.

In general, there isn't any unambiguous way to have a "point of view" regarding distant objects. You replace this with the ability to use your map of space-time (the metric) to compute anything you can actually measure (with clocks, and radar signals, as specified eariler).

One final note. Misner notes that this is "A method" to make sure one specifies relativistic corrections correctly. It doesn't necessarily mean it is "the only method". Part of the issues here are philsophical, so you might find people with different philosophies. This particular method is particularly simple and useful, I think, however, and avoids a lot of digressions.
 

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