Properties of Line Integrals question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around properties of line integrals, specifically examining the conditions under which certain corollaries apply. Participants explore the definition of a vector field, potential functions, and the implications of the line integral around a closed curve in the context of the given corollary 4.6. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and conceptual clarification related to vector calculus.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express uncertainty in answering the questions and seek assistance from others.
  • One participant suggests using the definition of the gradient to approach the problem, indicating that partial derivatives and algebra are necessary for the solution.
  • Another participant provides a potential function and calculates the line integral, questioning whether the result contradicts corollary 4.6.
  • Some participants argue that the conditions for corollary 4.6 must be fulfilled for it to apply, prompting a discussion about the definition of the potential function and the points where it is undefined.
  • There is a debate about the necessity of graphing the curve C and understanding its implications for the line integral.
  • Participants discuss the nature of the parametric curve defined by x = cos(t) and y = sin(t), with some expressing confusion about plotting and understanding the curve's behavior.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of understanding the mathematical concepts rather than relying solely on graphing calculators.
  • A later reply highlights that the curve described by the parametric equations is a circle, leading to further exploration of its properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach a consensus, as there are multiple competing views regarding the application of corollary 4.6 and the conditions under which it holds. Some participants agree on the need to clarify the definitions and conditions, while others express differing opinions on the implications of the results.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the need for clarity on the conditions required for corollary 4.6, the definition of the potential function, and the specific points where it is undefined. There is also uncertainty regarding the graphical representation of the curve and its implications for the line integral.

  • #31
What is C1 and C2 and how are those related to C?
Is f a general vector function?
 
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  • #32
drmalawi said:
What is C1 and C2 and how are those related to C?
Is f a general vector function?
I think for both C1 and C2, x= cos(t), y=sin(t) where 0≤t≤2π and
1656851231513.png

and that's why
C1f⋅dr = C2f⋅dr =0.
Am I correct?
 
  • #33
WMDhamnekar said:
I think for both C1 and C2, x= cos(t), y=sin(t) where 0≤t≤2π and

Eh no, C1 and C2 must be related to C in some way and C must be a general closed curve. It should be written in your book. Btw are you sure they should be closed? indicates so, but are you really sure the question is formulated in that way? Otherwise, if they are closed, they should be related like this (but I do not know for sure since you are not providing enough info)
1656852746236.png
 
  • #34
drmalawi said:
Eh no, C1 and C2 must be related to C in some way and C must be a general closed curve. It should be written in your book. Btw are you sure they should be closed? indicates so, but are you really sure the question is formulated in that way? Otherwise, if they are closed, they should be related like this (but I do not know for sure since you are not providing enough info)
View attachment 303692
Whatever information you require is given in this example and related figure.

1656853233253.png

For more general proof, you read below given study material.
1656853619749.png


1656853884627.png
 
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  • #35
So it is not a general theorem or such? Just for this example? Then you just calculate:
C1f⋅dr1 which is equal to 2π
and
C2f⋅dr2 which is equal to -
 
  • #36
I mean, don’t lose track of the underlying purpose of that example: To demonstrate an application of Green’s theorem to a region with holes in it where the boundary is not a single closed curve but a union of several closed curves. In those cases Green’s theorem relates the sum of the line integrals over those closed curves to a surface integral over the contained region.

I do disagree somewhat with figure 4.3.4. There is no need to cut the region into several regions. It is enough to introduce enough cuts to make a single bounded region without holes. I used this myself last year when installing guiding cable for a lawnmower robot in my garden.
 
  • #37
Orodruin said:
I mean, don’t lose track of the underlying purpose of that example: To demonstrate an application of Green’s theorem to a region with holes in it where the boundary is not a single closed curve but a union of several closed curves. In those cases Green’s theorem relates the sum of the line integrals over those closed curves to a surface integral over the contained region.

I do disagree somewhat with figure 4.3.4. There is no need to cut the region into several regions. It is enough to introduce enough cuts to make a single bounded region without holes. I used this myself last year when installing guiding cable for a lawnmower robot in my garden.
Just one question:
Does author want to say Green's theorem holds for 'multiple connected regions' instead of ' multiply connected regions' ?
If no, would you distinguish between 'multiple connected regions' and 'multiply connected regions'
 
  • #38
WMDhamnekar said:
Just one question:
Does author want to say Green's theorem holds for 'multiple connected regions' instead of ' multiply connected regions' ?
If no, would you distinguish between 'multiple connected regions' and 'multiply connected regions'
No. Yes.

The concept of being multiply connected is a topological concept that effectively tells you that a region has holes in it. It is in contrast to simply connected region.
 
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  • #39
Imagine a connected region in the plane bounded by a finite number of closed curves. a transverse cut is a path in the region whose endpoints lie on the boundary. such a region is simply connected, or 1-conncted, if any transverse cut separates it into two pieces, and a region is n+1 connected if any transverse cut that does not separate it, changes it into an n connected region. E.g. a region is doubly connected if any transverse cut separates it into a simply connected region. I.e. an annulus, the region between two concentric circles, is doubly connected. Removing n disjoint discs from the interior of a disc gives an n+1 connected region.

these definitions are taken from Riemann's paper on the theory of abelian functions, where he introduced these ideas, (and apparently created the subject of topology).

see the simply connected (einfach zusammenhangende) and doubly connected (zweifach zusammenhangende) surfaces depicted on page 9 of his paper: (which are similar to figures in your posts 29, 34)

https://www.maths.tcd.ie/pub/HistMath/People/Riemann/AbelFn/AbelFn.pdf
 
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