Prove Fermi-Walker Transport of Gyroscope's Spin Vector w/No Applied Moment

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving the Fermi-Walker transport of a gyroscope's spin vector without any applied moments. Participants explore the mathematical formulation and physical interpretation of the spin vector in local inertial frames, as well as the implications of certain assumptions made during the proof.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the equation for the spin vector and discusses the conditions under which it is transported, specifically in a local inertial frame.
  • Another participant argues that Fermi-Walker transport can be defined without assuming a specific frame, emphasizing the tensor nature of the equations involved.
  • There is a discussion about the interpretation of the time component of the spin vector, ##S^0##, and its implications for the overall proof.
  • Some participants clarify that the condition ##S \cdot u = 0## holds due to the anti-symmetry of the Levi-Civita symbol and the symmetry of the four-velocity.
  • Concerns are raised about the assumption that the time derivative of ##S^0## is constant, with suggestions that it may not necessarily be so.
  • One participant proposes that the term ##k##, which is derived from the time derivative of ##S^0##, should be viewed as a time-dependent factor rather than a constant.
  • Another participant points out that the derivative of ##S \cdot u## must vanish along the worldline, leading to further implications for Fermi-Walker transport.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of assuming a specific frame for the proof, the interpretation of ##S^0##, and the constancy of the term ##k##. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these assumptions and their impact on the proof of Fermi-Walker transport.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the assumptions made, particularly regarding the interpretation of the spin vector components and the conditions under which the equations hold. There is also mention of the potential for varying factors along the worldline that could affect the proof.

ergospherical
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With no applied moments, it is asked to prove that a gyroscope Fermi-Walker transports its spin vector ##S_{\alpha} = - \dfrac{1}{2} \epsilon_{\alpha \beta \gamma \delta} J^{\beta \gamma} u^{\delta}##. In a local inertial frame ##u^{\alpha} = (1, \mathbf{0}) = \delta^{\alpha}_0## and ##\dfrac{d\mathbf{S}}{dt} = 0## since a co-moving observer sees no precession of the spin axis. Put this condition in the form ##u \cdot \partial S^i = 0##. If one further assumes that the time derivative ##u \cdot \partial S^0## of the time component ##S^0## is a constant, say ##k##, then one can put ##u \cdot \partial S^{\alpha} = k \delta^{\alpha}_0 = ku^{\alpha}##, or\begin{align*}
u \cdot \partial S = ku
\end{align*}and then since ##S \cdot u = - \dfrac{1}{2} \epsilon_{\alpha \beta \gamma \delta} J^{\beta \gamma} u^{\delta} u^{\alpha} = 0##,\begin{align*}
0 = u \cdot \partial(S \cdot u) = -k + S \cdot a
\end{align*}and finally ##u \cdot \partial S = (S \cdot a)u##, which is the equation of Fermi-Walker transport (##a = u \cdot \partial u## is the four-acceleration of the gyroscope). What is the justification for putting the time derivative of ##S^0## to a constant? As a guess, it's the zero applied moment condition - but what is even the physical interpretation of the component ##S^0##?
 
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ergospherical said:
In a local inertial frame
I don't think you should need to assume any frame for this; Fermi-Walker transport can be defined in terms of tensor equations valid in any frame.

ergospherical said:
##u^{\alpha} = (1, \mathbf{0}) = \delta^{\alpha}_0## and ##\dfrac{d\mathbf{S}}{dt} = 0## since a co-moving observer sees no precession of the spin axis.
Here you are considering ##\mathbf{S}## to be a 3-vector; but in your original equation the spin ##S_\alpha## is a 4-vector (or covector, as you've written it). Try computing the 4-vector dot product ##u^\alpha S_\alpha##. What do you get?

ergospherical said:
what is even the physical interpretation of the component ##S^0##?
Try reconsidering this question after you have computed ##u^\alpha S_\alpha##.
 
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##S \cdot u = 0## since ##\epsilon_{\alpha \beta \gamma \delta}## is anti-symmetric in ##\alpha, \delta## whilst ##u^{\alpha} u^{\delta}## is symmetric in ##\alpha, \delta##, as in the OP. The local inertial frame is chosen only for convenience. Also, ##\mathbf{S}## is the spatial part of ##S^{\alpha} = (S^0, \mathbf{S})##.
 
ergospherical said:
##S \cdot u = 0##
Yes, exactly.

ergospherical said:
The local inertial frame is chosen only for convenience.
You don't need to choose a frame at all.

ergospherical said:
##\mathbf{S}## is the spatial part of ##S^{\alpha} = (S^0, \mathbf{S})##.
Yes, I know that. But since you have shown that ##S \cdot u = 0##, in any local inertial frame in which ##u = \left( 1, \mathbf{0} \right)##, what will ##S^0## be?

More importantly, now that you have shown that ##S \cdot u = 0##, what does that imply about Fermi-Walker transport? (Hint: take the derivative of ##S \cdot u##.)
 
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PeterDonis said:
But since you have shown that ##S \cdot u = 0##, in any local inertial frame in which ##u = \left( 1, \mathbf{0} \right)##, what will ##S^0## be?
This means that ##S^0 = 0## in the local inertial frame. It makes sense because in a general frame ##S \cdot u = -S^0 u^0 + \mathbf{S} \cdot \mathbf{u}## which implies that ##S^0 = \gamma^{-1} \mathbf{S} \cdot (\gamma \mathbf{v}) = \mathbf{S} \cdot \mathbf{v}##, and ##\mathbf{v} = \mathbf{0}## in a local inertial frame.

PeterDonis said:
More importantly, now that you have shown that ##S \cdot u = 0##, what does that imply about Fermi-Walker transport? (Hint: take the derivative of ##S \cdot u##.)
##u \cdot \partial (S \cdot u) = -k + S \cdot a##, where ##k## is the time derivative of ##S^0## evaluated at the instant the gyroscope is co-moving in this particular local inertial frame, so ##k = S \cdot a##.
 
ergospherical said:
This means that ##S^0 = 0## in the local inertial frame.
Yes. Which removes the need to try to find a physical interpretation for it. :wink:

ergospherical said:
##u \cdot \partial (S \cdot u) = -k + S \cdot a##, where ##k## is the time derivative of ##S^0##
##k## must be zero because ##S^0## is zero. More generally, ##\partial(S \cdot u)## must be zero because ##S \cdot u## is zero. But expanding out ##\partial(S \cdot u)## and setting it equal to zero should give an equation that is relevant to Fermi-Walker transport of ##S##.
 
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PeterDonis said:
##k## must be zero because ##S^0## is zero... But expanding out ##\partial(S \cdot u)## and setting it equal to zero should give an equation that is relevant to Fermi-Walker transport of ##S##.
First part doesn't follow: e.g. if ##f(x_0) = 0##, then ##f'(x_0)## is not necessarily zero...
Likewise, ##S^0 = 0## does not imply ##k\equiv dS^0/dt = 0##.

It has been derived that ##k = S\cdot a \, (\neq 0)## and therefore ##u \cdot \partial S = (S \cdot a)u##, which is the condition for Fermi-Walker transport.

But I was wondering what was the motivation to assume that the time-derivative of ##S^0## is constant, in the first few lines of the solution.
 
In fact, I wonder whether the book made a little linguistic slip. They wrote that ##k## is a constant of proportionality, but I reckon ##k## is not constrained to be constant. Rather it is some time-dependent factor ##S \cdot a##. Awkward misnomer, probably.
 
ergospherical said:
##S^0 = 0## does not imply ##k\equiv dS^0/dt = 0##.
If we are talking about ##S^0## in a particular local inertial frame, yes, you're right. I misspoke.

If we look at ##S \cdot u##, we know that vanishes everywhere on the worldline, not just at a single point, so its derivative (along the worldline) must be zero. Looking again at your OP, though, it appears you are already taking that into account.
 
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  • #10
ergospherical said:
the book
Which book?

ergospherical said:
##k## is not constrained to be constant. Rather it is some time-dependent factor ##S \cdot a##
Your OP shows that ##k = S \cdot a##, so the question is whether ##S \cdot a## can vary along the worldline, i.e., whether ##u \cdot \nabla \left( S \cdot a \right)## must vanish or not.
 
  • #11
It’s Lightman’s problem book on relativity, about 3 pages into chapter 11 on angular momentum (I can check exactly later).
 

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