Pull-back of vectors at a SINGLE point

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter ivl
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Point Vectors
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definitions and properties of pull-backs and push-forwards of vectors and covectors at a single point, as well as the conditions under which these operations can be defined. Participants explore the implications of the inverse function theorem and the concept of local diffeomorphisms in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that the pull-back of vectors at a single point is defined if and only if the push-forward is invertible at that point.
  • Another participant suggests an alternative notation for the inverse of the push-forward, indicating a preference for clarity in mathematical expressions.
  • A participant reflects on the inverse function theorem, stating that if the push-forward is invertible, then the map is a local diffeomorphism around the point of interest.
  • The reasoning chain presented by a participant concludes that the pull-back of vector fields is defined if and only if the map is a local diffeomorphism from M to N.
  • One participant expresses agreement with the reasoning chain outlined by another, indicating support for the proposed definitions and conditions.
  • A suggestion is made to explore specific examples of pull-backs and push-forwards along maps to further clarify the concepts discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the reasoning chain regarding the conditions for defining pull-backs and push-forwards, but there is some variation in notation preferences and the clarity of definitions. The discussion remains open to further exploration and examples.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the dependence on the inverse function theorem and the implications of local diffeomorphisms, but the discussion does not resolve all nuances regarding the definitions and their applications.

ivl
Messages
27
Reaction score
0
Dear all,

xxxxxxPreliminaryxxxxxxx
the push-forward of vectors is FIRST defined at a single point, as

(F_{*}v)_{F(x)}(f)=v_{x}(f\circ F)

where

1. F_{*} is the push-forward associated with the smooth map F:M\rightarrow N
2. v_{x} is a vector at the point x\in M (a member of the tangent space of M at x)
3. f is a smooth function f:N\rightarrow \mathbb{R}

xxxxxxPreliminaryxxxxxxx
the pull-back of a covector is FIRST defined at a single point, as

(F^{*}\alpha)_{x}(v)=\alpha_{F(x)}(F_{*}v)

where

\alpha_{y} is a member of the cotangent vector of N at y.

xxxxxQuestionxxxxxx
At this point, I would like to pull-back vectors and push-forward covectors, but STILL at a SINGLE point. In other words, I do NOT want to consider FIELDS yet (I plan to do that later, as doing things step by step is more instructive).

I propose that the pull-back of vectors at a single point is defined if and only if F_{*} is invertible at that point. Then, I can write (F^{*}u)_{y}:=((F_{*})^{-1}u)_{y} where u belongs to the tangent space of N at y.

Similarly, I propose that the push-forward of covectors at a single point is defined if and only if F^{*} is invertible at that point. Then, I can write (F_{*}\beta)_{x}=((F^{*})^{-1}\beta)_{x} where \beta belongs to the cotangent space of M at x

Does anyone know if this is right? is there a book that deals with things completely point-wise (until using fields becomes unavoidable)?

Thanks a lot
 
Physics news on Phys.org
It looks ok. Except the notation ((F))-1u)y is weird.

Better is ((F-1))u)y where F-1 stands for a local inverse of F around y.
 
Thanks Quasar897!

the reason I was using the notation ((F_{∗})^{-1}u)_{y} is that I was not aware of the inverse function theorem:

xxxxxxx Inverse function theorem xxxxxxxxx
If F_{*} is invertible at the point x \in M, then F is a local diffeomorphism around x \in M. In other words, in some neighborhood of x \in M the inverse F^{-1} is defined.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Would you mind giving me your opinion on the following chain of reasoning?

1. I want to introduce the pull-back of vector fields.
2. I begin by trying and pulling-back vectors at a single point.
3. The only sensible definition for a single-point pull-back of a vector is the inverse of the push-forward at that point.
4. I have no choice but to assume F_{*} invertible at the single point of interest.
5. From the inverse function theorem, I am actually forced to assume that F is a local diffeomorphism.
6. Hence, I automatically get a pull-back that works for vector FIELDS, albeit locally around a point.
7. Then, I just need to repeat the procedure for every point on M. Hence, the pull-back of vector fields is defined if and only if F is a local diffeomorphism from M to N.

Any help is very appreciated!
 
I would agree with all 7 points!
 
Why don't you try some specific examples of pullbacks and pushforwards along maps F?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K