Pushing with a lorentz contracting stick

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of using a Lorentz contracting stick to push an object, specifically examining whether conservation of energy is violated in this scenario. The conversation touches on concepts from special relativity, energy transfer, and the behavior of forces in different reference frames.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether conservation of energy is violated when pushing an object with a stick, noting that the force exerted and the distance pushed may lead to an energy increase that is less than expected.
  • Another participant asserts that while energy is frame-dependent, it is conserved within each frame, distinguishing between conservation and invariance.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the original question was misunderstood, suggesting that the energy of the push varies at different ends of the stick due to relativistic effects, including force measurements and distance traveled.
  • Further elaboration indicates that the situation is complex, involving considerations of kinetic energy, the energy of the stick itself, and potential elastic energy if the stick is compressed during the push.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of energy conservation in this context, with no consensus reached on whether conservation is violated or how to account for the various forms of energy involved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the need to consider the specific details of motion and material properties when analyzing energy transfer in relativistic scenarios. There are unresolved aspects regarding the exact calculations and assumptions necessary to fully address the question.

jartsa
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Let's say I'm pushing and accelerating an object using a long stick, like this:

H--------------O
-->

H is my hand, O is the object.

The force I use is F, the distance I push is s, the energy I use is Fs

The force pushing the object <= F
The distance that the object is pushed < s

So energy increase of the object < Fs

Is conservation of energy violated here?
 
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No. Energy is different in different frames, but it is conserved in each. Conservation and invariance are separate concepts.
 
DaleSpam said:
No. Energy is different in different frames, but it is conserved in each. Conservation and invariance are separate concepts.

You answered some other question. This question was about energy at different ends of a stick. Energy of push.

We know a force meter shows a smaller reading at the other end of the stick, because an accelerometer shows smaller reading at the nose of an accelerating rocket.

And we know the hand moves a longer distance compared to the other end of the stick.

So force times distance is smaller at the object side of the stick.
 
jartsa said:
You answered some other question. This question was about energy at different ends of a stick. Energy of push.
Oh, I misunderstood the question, apologies.

That is a much more difficult question to answer. Depending on the exact details of the motion and the material properties of the stick there are several things to consider. First, the pure kinematics makes it so that the KE is higher than you would get classically (i.e. in Newtonian physics the limit of KE as v→c is finite but in SR it is infinite). Second, the rod itself has KE. Third, the rod may be compressed by the push, in which case the rod also stores elastic PE.

If you carefully account for all the types of energy then you will get conservation.
 

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