Quadrature Booster or Phase shifting TX

[tim9000]

Hi, Does anyone know about these? Specifically I'm trying to figure out changing the tap on the Delta effects the series voltage:

source wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrature_booster

Any vector diagram or word explanations will help. Also, what size diameter coils must be used on the series transformer? I would imagine really huge if it's seriesed with a transmission line?

Thanks

 

[jim hardy]

Draw your phasor triangle.
Then think back to eighth grade geometry.
In an equilateral triangle, the bisector of any angle is perpendicular to and bisects the opposite side.Phase B's real current is perpendicular to phase AC's voltage, and so on around the three vertices.
There's the 90 degrees.
Observe that's how they connected the transformers.

So they "tweak" the apparent phase difference between ends of the line.

I would imagine really huge if it's seriesed with a transmission line?

i never saw one of those transformers in real life. From the picture at WIKI , the insulators are what you'd expect.
Maybe someone here has been inside one.

 

[tim9000]

Actually come to think of it I don't know if I ever found out, or just meant to find out how a Delta to Wye shifts by 30^o, because I certainly can't remember now. (If you wanted to explain that a bit too that'd be brilliant)
Ok, from what you said "
In an equilateral triangle, the bisector of any angle is perpendicular to and bisects the opposite side.
Phase B's real current is perpendicular to phase AC's voltage, and so on around the three vertices.
There's the 90 degrees."
I assume you chose Phase B just as an example phase from what you described I imagine it'd look something like this:

Sorry but I haven't used vector diagrams in ages, I perhaps understand (remember) less than you might (should) expect (sorry), do you think you could elaborate on the picture a bit, because I wasn't comfortable enough to label it myself, I was thinking the outside equilateral sides were the Delta phase voltage angles, but were the verticies? The series transformer on the side bucking the existing phase voltages?
I still haven't gotten past the mental block between where I am and understanding it.
Thanks

 

[jim hardy]

three phase is easier than it looks. Tutorials are everywhere.
i suspect you're past this one, but it looks like a decent refresher
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/phasors.html

From one at https://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/threeph.htm
not recommending it, just this image showed up early in the search

o would be neutral
a b and c the three terminals

Assuming unity power factor
the current in line b is in phase with V_ob
which is perpendicular to V_ca
and so forth

so a voltage that's in or 180° out of phase with I_b gets added to V_ca
is what they're up to. Bear in mind that's a small voltage compared to system voltage, for what they're doing is controlling voltage drop across a wire.

I'm not a power systems guy, have only worked around some. So i'll hope a genuine one helps us with the power flow calcs, it'd save some stumbling.

 

[tim9000]

H'mm, almost there. I don't like the idea of talking about current's too.
So would it also be fair to say the voltage pulled off the 'AC' line voltage (does not stand for Alternating Current here lol), is just perpendicular to V_OB?
[Anyway the current in V_OB is in-phase with the V_OB at unity isn't it?]

I'm not entirely sure what you meant by "tweeking the apparent phase differences of the ends of the line"? But wouldn't the net result just be that the magnitude of V_OB would be greater?

Interesting, thanks for the explanation so far!

 

[jim hardy]

So would it also be fair to say the voltage pulled off the 'AC' line voltage (does not stand for Alternating Current here lol), is just perpendicular to VOB?

Sure.

I'm not entirely sure what you meant by "tweeking the apparent phase differences of the ends of the line"? But wouldn't the net result just be that the magnitude of VOB would be greater?

Remember this thing is part of a power system.

Its purpose is to control the current through a line connecting two locations.
The voltage drop along the line is small compared to the voltage on the line itself.

I was working it in my head last night.
Think single phase for a minute:
Current through the line is
(Voltage between its ends)/Zline
They are adding to the term (Voltage between its ends) a small voltage at 90 degrees.
Their intent is to force current sharing between that and some other line connecting the two places.
So Vob is pretty well fixed by the power system

But wouldn't the net result just be that the magnitude of VOB would be greater?

What they added is a small voltage in phase with VOB.
If i understand this thing, those windings in series with the line aren't current measuring CT's they're voltage adding transformers.
By adding a voltage out of phase they shift the phase of term (Voltage between its ends) . Hence the current through it.
That's what wiki says they're up to.

 

[tim9000]

Current through the line is
(Voltage between its ends)/Zline
They are adding to the term (Voltage between its ends) a small voltage at 90 degrees.
Their intent is to force current sharing between that and some other line connecting the two places.
So Vob is pretty well fixed by the power system
By adding a voltage out of phase they shift the phase of term (Voltage between its ends) . Hence the current through it.

Ok, so if you want more current down B phase, you add a small voltage 90 degrees to B. So when they take V_ca off the Delta, and add it to V_b you're adding a 90 deg out of phase voltage and that causes more current to flow down B phase?

You're explanation should be added to the wiki page.

 

[jim hardy]

You'd probably do all three phases so as to shift current from one whole transmission line to another, or to route power around a region.

Have you seen this page? The power grid is a huge interconnected dynamic system with power flowing every which way.
Watch it in motion.

 

[tim9000]

Ok, so if you want more current down B phase, you add a small voltage 90 degrees out of phase to B. So when they take Vca off the Delta, and add it to Vb you're adding a 90 deg out of phase voltage and that causes more current to flow down B phase?

You'd probably do all three phases so as to shift current from one whole transmission line to another, or to route power around a region.

Yeah, but I meant just in the realm of keeping with your Phase B observation/example.

Have you seen this page?

Which page are you talking about? This thread?
Yeah from what little exposure I have had to power system diagrams they do seem chaotic on first glance lol

 

[jim hardy]

Which page are you talking about? This thread?

oops this graphic of US grid.. it's like watching a mobile swing in the breeze

http://fnetpublic.utk.edu/gradientmap.html

 

[tim9000]

oops this graphic of US grid.. it's like watching a mobile swing in the breeze

http://fnetpublic.utk.edu/gradientmap.html

Ah that's cool, yeah I've been meaning to look into the 'droop characteristic' of how busses balance themselves by changing the frequency slightly or something, all I remember hearing is that the characteristic means that nothing needs to be controlled, it does it inherently. *I am aware that statement is probably conflating different aspects, and is wrong lol*

So just for my final piece of mind, was I correct in my understanding of a single phase examination (of B phase)
'if you want more current down B phase, you add a small voltage 90 degrees out of phase to B. So when they take Vca off the Delta, and add it to Vb you're adding a 90 deg out of phase voltage and that causes more current to flow down B phase line?'

Cheers!

 

[jim hardy]

So just for my final piece of mind, was I correct in my understanding of a single phase examination (of B phase)
'if you want more current down B phase, you add a small voltage 90 degrees out of phase to B. So when they take Vca off the Delta, and add it to Vb you're adding a 90 deg out of phase voltage and that causes more current to flow down B phase line?'

Absolutely !

maybe more current, maybe less, depending on the phase difference between the substations at the two ends of the line.
Observe they have flexibility to add it 90 deg leading or 90 degree lagging, depending on bus transformer tap ..

it's a control system...needs to be symmetric