I Quantum entanglement in the MWI

  • #61
kered rettop said:
It doesn't need a new concept of probability. It is sufficient to identify a subsystem in which "which-branch" information is not available.
Please give a reference. I strongly doubt you will be able to give one that expounds this point of view and is generally accepted as correct, since this is still an open issue with the MWI (as I have already said several times now).
 
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  • #62
Motore said:
I know is pop sci but you have a link to a pdf by Taha Dawoodbhoy (that is itself a derivation of the concept from Zurek and Carroll) that explains it in more detail.
PeroK said:
I'm talking here about what is specifically in the Vaidman paper. This issue of fundamentally equal amplitudes is a necessary assumption, not explicity stated in his paper.
Are you sure that we are talking about a Vaidman paper here? Like
Morbert said:
(Bell Inequality and Many-Worlds Interpretation) or https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.05025 (All is Psi)? Or the SEP article https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2021/entries/qm-manyworlds/?
 
  • #63
This paper might be relevant
https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1039&context=philosophy_articles
Vaidman said:
In the MWI there is a well-defined alternative strategy that weights descendants in proportion to their absolute squared amplitudes (or equivalently, their measures of existence). It is attractive because it ensures consistency with the situations in which majority vote is legitimate: every D-world can be split into two equal amplitude worlds with amplitude equal to the A world.
 
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  • #64
As an aside: Does Vaidman or anyone explain how to exclude worlds with zero weights when pursuing these equal-amplitude terms? E.g. If we can rewrite a term ##\sqrt{\frac{2}{3}}|\psi\rangle## as ##\sqrt{\frac{1}{3}}|\psi\rangle + \sqrt{\frac{1}{3}}|\psi\rangle## what stops us from rewriting ##0|\psi\rangle## as ##|\psi\rangle - |\psi\rangle##
 
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  • #65
PeterDonis said:
Please give a reference. I strongly doubt you will be able to give one that expounds this point of view and is generally accepted as correct, since this is still an open issue with the MWI (as I have already said several times now).
A reference for what? I am pointing out a flaw in your argument.
 
  • #66
kered rettop said:
A reference for what?
For your claim that I quoted.

kered rettop said:
I am pointing out a flaw in your argument.
No, you were making a positive claim, which needs a reference.
 
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  • #67
Morbert said:
As an aside: Does Vaidman or anyone explain how to exclude worlds with zero weights when pursuing these equal-amplitude terms? E.g. If we can rewrite a term ##\sqrt{\frac{2}{3}}|\psi\rangle## as ##\sqrt{\frac{1}{3}}|\psi\rangle + \sqrt{\frac{1}{3}}|\psi\rangle## what stops us from rewriting ##0|\psi\rangle## as ##|\psi\rangle - |\psi\rangle##
Following the world weight idea, why would this be an issue? Zero would be zero worlds, it does not matter how you write the state.
 
  • #68
gentzen said:
Are you sure that we are talking about a Vaidman paper here?
I'm not sure now. I thought someone posted a paper by Vaidman that had a summary of the probability argument. I can't find it now. Then, I watched the PBS video, which seemed to explain the very points in the paper.
gentzen said:
Like

(Bell Inequality and Many-Worlds Interpretation) or https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.05025 (All is Psi)? Or the SEP article https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2021/entries/qm-manyworlds/?
It wasn't those papers I was thinking of. Sorry, maybe I dreamt it!
 
  • #69
Morbert said:
As an aside: Does Vaidman or anyone explain how to exclude worlds with zero weights when pursuing these equal-amplitude terms? E.g. If we can rewrite a term ##\sqrt{\frac{2}{3}}|\psi\rangle## as ##\sqrt{\frac{1}{3}}|\psi\rangle + \sqrt{\frac{1}{3}}|\psi\rangle## what stops us from rewriting ##0|\psi\rangle## as ##|\psi\rangle - |\psi\rangle##
I can boil down my argument to this:
If you are doing a Markov chain in a equally likely scenario (coin toss, roll of a die etc.), then you can drop the probabilitity calculations at every branch and just count the final outcomes. I've often used this trick myself. Three rolls of a die, means ##6^3 = 216## equally likely outcomes and you simply count how many add up to 17, say, and that's your final probability: ##N(17)/216##.

A Markov chain is usually interpreted as a model of all the possibilities in a probabilistic setting. Only one line through the chain will actually happen. But, of course, it could be interpreted as an MWI-type model of everything that happens.

But, you can only replace probabilities with counting if everything has the same equal likelihood at every stage. For example, suppose we toss a coin to get us started. If it's heads we toss it again. If it's tails we roll a die. That gives us 8 final outcomes. But, these outcomes are not equally likely anymore. Even though each branch was an equally likely split. If we tried the MWI interpretation, we would find six worlds where the first toss was a tail and only two where it was a head. This won't do.

To fix this, we would have to split the second coin toss into six worlds: three being a head and three a tail. Now, we do have twelve equally likely final outcomes.

To do this counting trick for Markov chains requires some sleight of hand to keep the number of outcomes representative of the probabilies. And, in general, this counting trick cannot be made to work in all scenarios.

This idea, I believe, is at the heart of the idea that "probability is an illusion from the number of worlds" presented in these papers. They complicate the matter by reference to observers and macroscopic devices. But, these complications effectively obscure the fundamental problems with the idea:

1) You would need a superdeterministic sleight of hand to keep the number of worlds in all cases aligned with the quantum mechanical probabilities.

2) There is an immediate problem with any branching that is itself not an equally likely model. Addition of angular momentum using the Clebsch-Gordan coefficients is one example where the fundamental branching is not equally likely.

I just don't see how one could possibly pull off this trick in general.
 
  • #70
PeterDonis said:
For your claim that I quoted/

No, you were making a positive claim, which needs a reference.
Well, that's the trouble, you see. I don't think I did make a positive claim. I took considerable care to make my point without doing so. Which is why I am asking you, in the nicest possible way, to tell me exactly what claim you think I made. It's no good just throwing my post back at me verbatim, saying "it's in there".
 
  • #71
kered rettop said:
I don't think I did make a positive claim.
Here is what you said:

kered rettop said:
It is sufficient to identify a subsystem in which "which-branch" information is not available. This can be personified as an observer who is ignorant of the branch in which they are embedded.
That's a positive claim. Either give a reference to back it up or retract it.

kered rettop said:
It's no good just throwing my post back at me verbatim, saying "it's in there".
Um, yes, it is. What I quoted was all of your post except the first sentence, which just said you were disagreeing with me. If you don't think that two declarative assertions by you are a positive claim, then I am very confused about what language you think you are speaking.
 
  • #72
PeterDonis said:
That's a positive claim. Either give a reference to back it up or retract it.
Neither of those is going to happen, are they?
 
  • #73
kered rettop said:
Neither of those is going to happen, are they?
If not, then the subject is off topic for this thread and I will delete both of our posts that refer to it.
 
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  • #74
PeroK said:
I just don't see how one could possibly pull off this trick in general.
Would it help to recognise that there is a difference between dividing a world-state using arithmetic and dividing it by means of decoherence?

With arithmetic, the amplitude is divided by a real number, N, to produce N identical micro-world-states. Phase is retained: the micro-world-states are coherent. So they are indistinguishable and it doesn't make any sense to assign probability to them individually. Though if you did, it would be original/N^2. However, when you add a bunch of them together, they interfere constructively.

Decoherence works the opposite way. The process leads directly to N orthogonal micro-world-states. You can calculate the required probabilities using the Born Rule and there is no interference. Obviously the amplitudes are not original/N but original/sqrt(N).

Edit - It seems to me that what you call fundamental branching doesn't enter into any of this.
 
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  • #75
kered rettop said:
You can calculate the required probabilities using the Born Rule
But in the MWI, there is no accepted derivation of the Born Rule. And if you adopt it as an extra assumption, you can't then use it to justify a concept of probability in the MWI; that would be arguing in a circle.
 
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  • #76
PeterDonis said:
But in the MWI, there is no accepted derivation of the Born Rule. And if you adopt it as an extra assumption, you can't then use it to justify a concept of probability in the MWI; that would be arguing in a circle.
No, the context was arguments based on world-counting, specifically about how to count worlds correctly. One criterion, pointed out by the previous poster, PeroK, is that world-counting must sucessfully reconcile amplitudes with probabilities. The correct probabilities are given by the Born Rule. The Born Rule is thus an objective of the argument, it has no place as an assumption of the argument. That's why I said "required probabilities".
 
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  • #77
kered rettop said:
the context was arguments based on world-counting
Which means the MWI. Which means you can't just take the Born Rule as given.

kered rettop said:
The Born Rule is thus an objective of the argument
Are you claiming that this argument is a valid derivation of the Born Rule in the MWI? On what basis? Do you have a reference?
 
  • #78
kered rettop said:
One criterion, pointed out by the previous poster, PeroK, is that world-counting must sucessfully reconcile amplitudes with probabilities. The correct probabilities are given by the Born Rule.
In the context of the MWI, before you can even get to this point, you have to justify how the concept of "probability" even makes sense.
 
  • #79
PeterDonis said:
In the context of the MWI, before you can even get to this point, you have to justify how the concept of "probability" even makes sense.
If by "you", you mean the formulator of the candidate argument, then sure, of course they do.
 
  • #80
kered rettop said:
If by "you", you mean the formulator of the candidate argument, then sure, of course they do.
Where do they do that?
 
  • #81
PeterDonis said:
Which means the MWI. Which means you can't just take the Born Rule as given.
Oh I see what you mean. Yes, I was assuming that the desired probabilies would be the Born Rule. I should have left it at "desired probabilites" and left it to the formulators or PeroK to decide and justify what they should be.
 
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  • #82
PeterDonis said:
Where do they do that?
Oh good grief!
"do have to justify" not "do justify"!!!
 
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  • #83
PeterDonis said:
Are you claiming that this argument is a valid derivation of the Born Rule in the MWI?
No.
 
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  • #84
kered rettop said:
Would it help to recognise that there is a difference between dividing a world-state using arithmetic and dividing it by means of decoherence?
Take Schrodinger's cat as an example. But, instead of the 50-50 probability of decay, make it 10%. There should only be two decohered worlds. The fundamental branching of the radioactive sample is fundamental to the experiment. And, yet, there would have to be 9 times as many decohered worlds with a live cat than a dead one. Unless that ratio is driven by an initial weighted or probabilistic branching, how can it be otherwise conjured?

Moreover, the probabilistic explanation is simple. The sample has a probability of ##p## to decay; the probability the cat dies is ##p##.
 
  • #85
PeroK said:
Moreover, the probabilistic explanation is simple. The sample has a probability of ##p## to decay; the probability the cat dies is ##p##.
It depends what you mean by simple. Introducing probability as a primitive complicates the fundamentals of the theory. It may simplify the development of the theory. Occam's Razor vs Shut Up And Calculate.
 
  • #86
kered rettop said:
It depends what you mean by simple. Introducing probability as a primitive complicates the fundamentals of the theory. It may simplify the development of the theory. Occam's Razor vs Shut Up And Calculate.
I don't see how what is proposed can claim the moral high ground and insinuate a shut up and calculate accusation against a probabilistic theory. You need a constructive argument to support the MWI counting process. Throwing mud in the form of cheap soundbites doesn't cut it.
 
  • #87
kered rettop said:
Oh good grief!
"do have to justify" not "do justify"!!!
Sorry, I misinterpreted your post.
 
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  • #88
PeroK said:
I don't see how what is proposed can claim the moral high ground and insinuate a shut up and calculate accusation against a probabilistic theory.
Hardly a theory. Just the status of probability.

PeroK said:
You need a constructive argument to support the MWI counting process.
Somebody might. I don't, since I am not advocating anything.

PeroK said:
Throwing mud in the form of cheap soundbites doesn't cut it.
Oh, it's much worse than that. I have only just realized what you've been talking about. Even if I'd used a phrase which you found acceptable, my point would have been invalid. SUAC isn't so bad in the context of my misundertanding.

And yes, this means that my suggestion won't be helpful either.
 
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