Question about cardinality and CH

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of the Continuum Hypothesis (CH) on cardinalities, particularly focusing on the set of cardinals less than certain infinite cardinals and the behavior of these cardinalities under the negation of CH. Participants explore theoretical aspects and definitions related to cardinality and the continuum.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that under CH, the cardinality of the set of cardinals less than \(\aleph_1\) is \(\aleph_0\) and questions whether this holds under the negation of CH.
  • Another participant clarifies the interpretation of the set \(\{a < \aleph_1 : a \text{ is a cardinal}\}\) and states that it is always countable, regardless of CH.
  • A participant provides an example showing that for \(\aleph_2\), the cardinality remains \(\aleph_0\), indicating that CH does not affect this specific case.
  • Discussion arises regarding the set \(\{a < 2^{\aleph_0} : a \text{ is a cardinal}\}\), with one participant noting that if CH holds, this set has cardinality \(\aleph_0\), but if CH does not hold, it can take on any cardinality, including \(\aleph_{666}\).
  • Another participant challenges the claim that any ordinal can replace 666, specifically questioning the consistency of using \(\omega_1\) as a cardinality.
  • One participant references Easton's theorem to support the idea that \(2^{\aleph_0} = \aleph_{\omega_1}\) is consistent with ZFC.
  • Concerns are raised about potential limits on the cardinalities of the continuum, particularly regarding the cofinality of the continuum and implications for \(2^{\aleph_0}\).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of CH and the cardinalities involved, particularly regarding the consistency of various cardinalities under different assumptions. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the dependence on definitions and the potential for unresolved mathematical steps, particularly concerning the implications of CH and the cardinalities of the continuum.

Werg22
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Under the continuum hypothesis, we readily see that that |{a &lt; \aleph_1 : \textrm{a is a cardinal}}| = \aleph_0. What happens under the negation of CH? Is this equality still true or not? If the latter, always under the negation of CH, are there any infinite cardinals lambda for which the inequality |{a &lt; \lambda : \textrm{a is a cardinal}}| = \lambda fails?
 
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First, what do you mean with |a&lt;\aleph_1 : a \text{ is a cardinal}|. Do you simply mean the cardinality of the set \{a&lt;\aleph_1 : a \text{ is a cardinal}\}??

In that case, it is always true that

\{a&lt;\aleph_1 : a \text{ is a cardinal}\}=\mathbb{N}\cup \{\aleph_0\}

So wheter CH holds or not, this set is always countable.
In general we have that (by definition almost)

\{a&lt;\aleph_\alpha : a \text{ is a cardinal}\}=\mathbb{N}\cup \{\aleph_\beta~\vert~\beta&lt;\alpha\}.

For your second question, this is not always true. For example:

\{a&lt;\aleph_2 : a \text{ is a cardinal}\}=\mathbb{N}\cup \{\aleph_0,\aleph_1\}.

But this is also countable, so |a&lt;\aleph_2 : a \text{ is a cardinal}|=\aleph_0

Where CH does come into play, is with the set

|a&lt;2^{\aleph_0} : a \text{ is a cardinal}|

If CH is true, then this is \aleph_0. But if CH is not true, then it can be any cardinal. E.g. it is consistent with ZFC that

|a&lt;2^{\aleph_0} : a \text{ is a cardinal}|=\aleph_{666}

and so on if you replace 666 with any ordinal.

I hope this answer was helpful...
 
micromass said:
and so on if you replace 666 with any ordinal.

I don't think you can replace it with any ordinal. What about, e.g., \omega_1? Could that really be consistent?
 
But it is consistent with ZFC that 2^{\aleph_0}=\aleph_{\omega_1}. See Easton's theorem...
 
CRGreathouse said:
I don't think you can replace it with any ordinal. What about, e.g., \omega_1? Could that really be consistent?

I believe there are some very weak limits on possible cardinalities of the continuum - I think the cofinality of the continuum is uncountable, and so, for instance, 2^aleph_0 can't be aleph_omega.
 
Many thanks micromass, you're clarified a few things for me. :smile:
 

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