Question about static spacetime

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter off-diagonal
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Spacetime Static
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of stationary and static spacetime as presented in Eric Poisson's "A Relativist's Toolkit." Participants explore the implications of hypersurface orthogonality and the conditions under which a spacetime can be classified as static, delving into the mathematical definitions and relationships involved.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants explain that static spacetime is characterized by a timelike Killing vector that is hypersurface orthogonal, implying certain conditions on the metric.
  • There is a discussion about the meaning of hypersurface orthogonality, with references to the normal vector to hypersurfaces and the relationship between Killing vectors and gradients.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the derivation of the statement regarding the Killing vector field and its relation to the metric components, specifically questioning the appearance of g_{tt} in the context.
  • Another participant confirms their understanding of the original statement from the textbook, asserting that they copied it directly.
  • Several participants express admiration for the knowledge level of a younger participant, indicating a mix of respect and surprise at their grasp of complex topics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the implications of the statements regarding static spacetime and the Killing vector. There are competing interpretations and clarifications regarding the mathematical relationships involved.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the complexity of the definitions and the potential for misunderstanding the relationships between the Killing vector, hypersurface orthogonality, and the metric components. The discussion reflects a range of familiarity with the material, from high school level to more advanced understanding.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and enthusiasts of general relativity and differential geometry, particularly those interested in the mathematical foundations of spacetime concepts.

off-diagonal
Messages
29
Reaction score
0
Hi, everyone

I'm now reading A Relativist's Toolkit by Eric Poisson.

In chapter 3, he say something about stationary and static spacetime.

For static spacetime, it's just like stationary (admits timelike Killing vector [itex]t^{\alpha}[/itex]) with addition that metric should be invariant under time reversal [itex]t \rightarrow -t[/itex]. Which implies in some specific coordinate [itex]g_{t\mu} = 0[/itex].

He also say that, this also implies that [itex]t_{\alpha} = g_{tt}\partial_{\alpha}t[/itex] and he concludes that "a spacetime is static if the timelike Killing vector field is hypersurface orthogonal".

I'd like to ask about these two implications. I have no idea how these two become relevant with static spacetime. Because, as far as I know, hypersurface orthogonal is the congruence of geodesics which have no rotating part.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Well, hypersurface orthogonality basically means that the vector field in question is everywhere orthogonal to a family of hypersurfaces. If you take a single hypersurface from that family, you know that the normal vector [itex]n_a = \frac{\partial f}{\partial x^{a}}[/itex] will be orthogonal to that selected hypersurface at some point P ([itex]n_{a}dx^{a} = 0[/itex] in the neighborhood of P). So a vector field is hypersurface orthogonal if it is proportional to the normal vector everywhere i.e. [itex]t^{a} = \sigma (x)n^a[/itex]. One condition that comes out of this is (and you can show this yourself from killing's equation [itex]\triangledown _{\beta }t_{\alpha } + \triangledown _{\alpha }t_{\beta } = 0[/itex]) that [itex]t_{a} = t^{2}\frac{\partial f}{\partial x^{a}}[/itex] for an arbitrary scalar field f. If you consider this condition specifically for a time - like killing field then [itex]t_{a} = \frac{\partial }{\partial t} = \delta ^{a}_{0}[/itex] so [itex]t_{a} = g_{ab}t^{a} = g_{0a}[/itex] and similarly, [itex]t^{2} = g_{00}[/itex]. Setting a = 0 in [itex]g_{0a} = g_{00}\frac{\partial f}{\partial x^{a}}[/itex] gives [itex]f = x^{0} + h(x^{i})[/itex]. Now, make the coordinate transformation [itex]x^{'0} = x^{0} + h(x^{i}), x^{'i} = x^{i}[/itex] and you will find that [itex]g_{'0i} = 0[/itex]. I am not sure about the second statement you made regarding [itex]t_{\alpha }[/itex]; are you sure it was written that way?
 
WannabeNewton said:
Well, hypersurface orthogonality basically means that the vector field in question is everywhere orthogonal to a family of hypersurfaces. If you take a single hypersurface from that family, you know that the normal vector [itex]n_a = \frac{\partial f}{\partial x^{a}}[/itex] will be orthogonal to that selected hypersurface at some point P ([itex]n_{a}dx^{a} = 0[/itex] in the neighborhood of P). So a vector field is hypersurface orthogonal if it is proportional to the normal vector everywhere i.e. [itex]t^{a} = \sigma (x)n^a[/itex]. One condition that comes out of this is (and you can show this yourself from killing's equation [itex]\triangledown _{\beta }t_{\alpha } + \triangledown _{\alpha }t_{\beta } = 0[/itex]) that [itex]t_{a} = t^{2}\frac{\partial f}{\partial x^{a}}[/itex] for an arbitrary scalar field f. If you consider this condition specifically for a time - like killing field then [itex]t_{a} = \frac{\partial }{\partial t} = \delta ^{a}_{0}[/itex] so [itex]t_{a} = g_{ab}t^{a} = g_{0a}[/itex] and similarly, [itex]t^{2} = g_{00}[/itex]. Setting a = 0 in [itex]g_{0a} = g_{00}\frac{\partial f}{\partial x^{a}}[/itex] gives [itex]f = x^{0} + h(x^{i})[/itex]. Now, make the coordinate transformation [itex]x^{'0} = x^{0} + h(x^{i}), x^{'i} = x^{i}[/itex] and you will find that [itex]g_{'0i} = 0[/itex]. I am not sure about the second statement you made regarding [itex]t_{\alpha }[/itex]; are you sure it was written that way?

O.K., WannabeNewton, are you really a junior in high school?
 
bobc2 said:
O.K., WannabeNewton, are you really a junior in high school?

Yeah, I go to Bronx High School of Science, NYC. Why o.0?
 
Wow, I thought that was a joke. That is impressive.

Did you teach yourself tensors or is it part of your curriculum?
 
DaleSpam said:
Wow, I thought that was a joke. That is impressive.

Did you teach yourself tensors or is it part of your curriculum?

Used Wald's text and Caroll's text to self - study the basics then used Bishop's Tensor Analysis on Manifolds. My school curriculum only goes up to AP Calculus BC.
 
Wow, thank you WannabeNewton for the proof of the first statement that helps me a lot.

About the second statement, I am sure because I just copy+paste from the original textbook.
 
Oh that is just the statement that the killing field will be proportional to the gradient because then the killing field is orthogonal to the family of hypersurfaces everywhere since it is proportional, at each point on the family of hypersurfaces, to the gradient (which will be orthogonal to a hypersurface at a point). The metric is the proportionality factor. I just don't get where he got the [itex]g_{tt}[/itex] from in that statement because I always thought it was [itex]t^{a} = g^{ab}\partial _{b}t[/itex] if you are going to use the metric as the proportionality.
 
WannabeNewton said:
Oh that is just the statement that the killing field will be proportional to the gradient because then the killing field is orthogonal to the family of hypersurfaces everywhere since it is proportional, at each point on the family of hypersurfaces, to the gradient (which will be orthogonal to a hypersurface at a point). The metric is the proportionality factor. I just don't get where he got the [itex]g_{tt}[/itex] from in that statement because I always thought it was [itex]t^{a} = g^{ab}\partial _{b}t[/itex] if you are going to use the metric as the proportionality.

Hey, boys. I think we have a boy genius here. (I didn't start studying this stuff until a physics student in grad school). From now on I learn at your feet, WannabeNewton (I think you are already Newton).
 
  • #10
bobc2 said:
Hey, boys. I think we have a boy genius here. (I didn't start studying this stuff until a physics student in grad school). From now on I learn at your feet, WannabeNewton (I think you are already Newton).

I wish hehe. I'm not smart at all, I just like learning these things is all. Cheers my good man.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
4K
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
4K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 56 ·
2
Replies
56
Views
4K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
4K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K