Range of validity of Maxwell's equations with charges

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the range of validity of Maxwell's equations in the presence of charges, exploring whether these equations apply only in regions where charges exist or if they hold in a broader context, including vacuum. Participants examine the implications of charge distributions and field interactions in classical electromagnetism.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that Maxwell's equations with charges are only valid where charges are present, suggesting that in neutral regions, the equations do not apply.
  • Another participant counters that Maxwell's equations remain valid even when no charges are present, as setting the charge density to zero does not negate the existence of electric and magnetic fields.
  • It is noted that the equations are general and applicable to the entire space, regardless of the presence of charges, as fields created by charges extend throughout space.
  • A participant emphasizes that the equations do not need to be reformulated for every infinitesimal volume, but rather apply uniformly across the defined space with a given charge distribution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the applicability of Maxwell's equations in regions without charges. Some maintain that the equations are limited to charged areas, while others argue for their validity in vacuum and throughout space.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the implications of charge distributions and field behavior, such as the divergence of fields at charges, without resolving the underlying assumptions or definitions that may affect their arguments.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying electromagnetism, particularly in understanding the implications of charge presence on the validity of Maxwell's equations and the behavior of electric and magnetic fields in various contexts.

fluidistic
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Maxwell's equations with charges can be written as the following (in the cgs system):

[tex]\frac{\partial \vec E}{\partial t} =c \vec \nabla \wedge \vec B-4\pi \vec J[/tex].
[tex]\frac{\partial \vec B}{\partial t} =-c \vec \nabla \wedge \vec E[/tex].
[tex]\vec \nabla \cdot \vec E =4 \pi \rho[/tex].
[tex]\vec \nabla \cdot \vec B =0[/tex].

If I'm right, these equations are valid only where charges are present. It means, almost nowhere! For instance consider a positively charged table. [tex]\rho(t,\vec x)[/tex] is of course not continuous since we're dealing with charges. In other words it is zero everywhere when there's no charge. If we assume the electron has a volume, then the equations would be valid within the volume of the electron. So in an neutral atom, these equations are valid less than 0.001% of the space (only where the proton and the electron are).
I'm just curious if I'm right. In an affirmative case, why do we bother with them and why don't we only use Maxwell's equation in vacuum?
In the latter case, I could imagine having a lot of boundary equations (precisely the places enclosing the charges) and I could only use Maxwell's equation in vacuum, taking into account all the boundary equations not to lose any information about the charges.
 
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Maxwell's equations are valid even when no charges are present. In that case, you can set [tex]\rho=0[/tex] and you can see that the equations are still there, and the E and B fields also interact.

We use this formulation because it's more general than the formulation without charges.

Because the equations are differential equations, even if some terms equal zero, the E and B fields need not equal zero. Just like if dx/dt=0 it doesn't mean x=0 for all time.
 
Matterwave said:
Maxwell's equations are valid even when no charges are present. In that case, you can set [tex]\rho=0[/tex] and you can see that the equations are still there, and the E and B fields also interact.

We use this formulation because it's more general than the formulation without charges.

Because the equations are differential equations, even if some terms equal zero, the E and B fields need not equal zero. Just like if dx/dt=0 it doesn't mean x=0 for all time.

Ah ok, thanks.
I'm getting it. I feel I'm learning a lot, it's incredibly nice!
 
You need to consider that charges create fields throughout your space, not simply where the charges are. Infact, in classical EM, the fields diverge at the actual charges. For example your coulomb field blows up as your field point approaches your charges.

When you formulate a problem, you define a space you're working in. Maxwell's equations will be valid in the entire space. You don't have a new equation for every infinitesimal volume in the space, it's simply one set of equations for the whole space given some charge distribution inside.

Think of a gravitational potential. It's defined for your entire volume of space, not just where the mass is.
 

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