Regarding BEC: Bose distribution and probabilities

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions for predicting the existence of a Bose-Einstein Condensate (BEC) in a dilute ultracold bosonic gas. Participants explore the relationship between probabilities of finding particles in different energy states using the Boltzmann and Bose distribution functions, examining how these probabilities relate to the onset of condensation at low temperatures.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant compares probabilities of finding the system in the lowest energy state versus the first excited state using the Boltzmann factor, concluding that P(E0) ≈ P(E1) at certain energy differences.
  • Another participant agrees that the system is nearly as likely to be in the lowest state as in the first excited state, suggesting a similar distribution of particles across these states.
  • A different participant challenges this view, arguing that all bosons should have the same probability due to non-interaction and the lack of restrictions imposed by the Pauli principle, implying equal probability for the entire system to occupy either energy state.
  • Another response counters this by stating that the Boltzmann factor for all particles being in the first excited state is infinitesimally small compared to all particles being in the ground state, indicating a significant disparity in probabilities.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of probabilities derived from the Boltzmann factor versus the Bose distribution function. There is no consensus on how these probabilities reconcile with the onset of BEC, indicating ongoing debate and uncertainty.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the energy differences involved are very small, leading to significant implications for the occupation of energy states. The discussion highlights the complexities in understanding the behavior of bosons in different energy states under the conditions described.

Kortirion
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Hello PF. I won't just lurk around today, I will pose a question.

I was looking at a dilute ultracold bosonic gas and was trying to see how one can predict the existence of a BEC and got stuck on this:
I was comparing probabilities between finding the system in the lowest state (energetically) and the first excited state through the use of the Boltzmann (and also Gibbs) factor.

Let E0 be the energy of the lowest state and also let me set this as my zero on the energy scale (E0 = 0), and let E1 be the energy of the first excited state. Now let's check the ratio of probability

P(E0)/P(E1) = exp(-E0/kT)/exp(-E1/kT) = exp(E1/kT), ok!

However, energy between these levels can be (for example) of the order of E1/k = 10-14 (temperature units) and thus exp(E1/kT) ≈ 1.
This gives (from above) the relation P(E0) ≈ P(E1). So the system is as likely to be in the lowest state as the first excited one.

Now I turn my head and look at the Bose distribution function
fBE = 1/(exp[(Ex-μ)/kT] - 1)
which describes the mean occupation of bosons in a state of energy Ex at temperature T, k and μ are Boltzmanns constant and the chemical potential (negative here!) respectivley.
Now I get something completely different from before (at least that's how it appears to me)! Let's say I have a system consisting of around N = 1022 bosons, and as above the energy difference (in temperature units) is of the order 10-14. I set the temperature to about T = 1 mK and let Ex = E1.

When I now check the ratio fBE/N ≈ 5*10-12.
So there's not a substantial fraction of particles at all in the first excited state! They must (nearly) all be in the lowest state. Since at this temperature the chemical potential is very close to E0 and thus fBE is really large. E0 dominates!

Now how do I resolve this? From looking at fBE I can see that there's an onset of condensation at low temperatures. But when looking at probabilities the lowest state is as good as the first excited one. What differs between these viewpoints!?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Kortirion said:
So the system is as likely to be in the lowest state as the first excited one.

Yes, true. The system is nearly as likely to be in a state with N_0 particles in the lowest level as to be in a state with N_0-1 particles in the lowest level and 1 particle in the excited level.
 
I cannot see how that solves my issue, sorry.
All the bosons should have that same probability since it's assumed here they don't interact. And since they don't obey the Pauli principle the can cram either levels without restriction (only restriction is that the number of atoms N is conserved). Therefore the system in it's entirety can have the state of energy N*E0 or N*E1 equally probable. Right?
 
No, the Boltzmann factor for all particles to be in the first excited state is exp(-e N E_1/kT) as compared to all particles being in the ground state. This is infinitesimally small.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K