Relation of Noether's theorem and group theory

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between Noether's theorem and group theory, particularly focusing on the application of group theory in understanding symmetry transformations related to Noether's theorem. Participants explore the nature of these transformations, their classification as groups, and the implications for research on Lagrangian mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant is researching group theory and its applications, specifically looking into Noether's theorem and its "easy proofs" related to various symmetries.
  • Another participant asserts that the symmetry transformations in Noether's theorem form a group, linking symmetries to conserved quantities such as linear momentum.
  • A participant questions whether the transformations can be classified as Lie groups, noting that they depend on continuous parameters.
  • There is a discussion on whether a Lie group is necessarily a symmetry group, with one participant indicating that this depends on the specific theory being considered.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that symmetry transformations related to Noether's theorem form groups, but there is uncertainty regarding the classification of these groups as Lie groups and whether all Lie groups are symmetry groups. The discussion remains unresolved on these points.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the definitions of groups and symmetries, as well as the specific conditions under which transformations are considered symmetries in different theories.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in the intersection of group theory and theoretical physics, particularly those studying symmetries in mechanics and the implications of Noether's theorem.

davidbenari
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I'm doing a small research project on group theory and its applications. The topic I wanted to investigate was Noether's theorem.

I've only seen the easy proofs regarding translational symmetry, time symmetry and rotational symmetry (I'll post a link to illustrate what I mean by "the easy proofs"). I know there are way more abstract proofs dealing with Lagrangian densities and whatnot and "conserved currents" and "divergent Lagrange relations".

My research doesn't have to be too extensive to be honest, so I was wondering if what I'm planning to do seems reasonable (and makes sense) to you.

What I plan to do is show the "easy proofs", interpret them, and then say that the transformations of the type (For ##L(q(t),\dot{q}(t),t)##):

##\vec{r} \to \vec{r}+\epsilon\hat{n} ## ( and leave other coordinates the same)

or ##\vec{r} \to \vec{r}+\epsilon \vec{r} \times \hat{n} ## (and leave other coordinates the same)

or ##t \to t+\epsilon ## (and leave all other coordinates the same)

Define a Lie group, because they are a symmetry group of the Lagrangian (under certain conditions) and because they have continuous parameters and satisfy the relevant axioms for a group.

But this doesn't seem like a blatant application of group theory. I could've studied these transformations without even knowing group theory existed. So I was wondering what you thought?

Is Noether's theorem really an application of group theory? In what way? What should I investigate specifically?

Link for "easy proofs" : http://phys.columbia.edu/~nicolis/NewFiles/Noether_theorem.pdf
 
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The symmetry transformations that you deal with in Noether's theorem are going to form a group (as any set of symmetries of a system will do). This is the connection to group theory. For example, the set of translations form an (Abelian) group and the corresponding conserved quantity is linear momentum and so on. In addition, momentum is the generator of the group of translations.
 
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Okay, nice. Can I in addition say that they will form Lie groups since they depend on continuous parameters? Also, is a Lie group necessarily a symmetry group?
 
davidbenari said:
Also, is a Lie group necessarily a symmetry group?
No, this depends on your theory. For example, a system does not necessarily need to be invariant under translations.
 
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