Relationship between force and (kinetic) energy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between force and kinetic energy, particularly in the context of a car applying torque while moving on a large flat mass. Participants explore the implications of applying the same force over time at different velocities, the work-energy principle, and the effects of constant velocity on torque and energy requirements.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant calculates the kinetic energy of a car and a flat mass after applying a force and questions if the energy required for a subsequent application of the same force will be similar.
  • Another participant references the definition of work, suggesting that applying the same force for the same duration at a higher speed would require more energy due to increased work done.
  • A different participant discusses the power transmission from the battery to the engine, proposing that the torque transferred to the wheels would be less when the car is moving at constant velocity compared to when it is at rest.
  • Clarification is sought regarding the comparison of cases, specifically between the car at rest and the car moving at constant velocity while applying torque.
  • One participant points out that if the car is moving at constant velocity and assuming no losses, there would be no torque applied in that scenario.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of applying the same force at different speeds, with some suggesting that more energy is needed while others question the torque application at constant velocity. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not reached consensus on the relationship between force, work, and energy requirements in the context of varying velocities and torque applications. Assumptions about energy losses and the nature of torque at constant velocity are also under consideration.

bendanish
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A car of mass 1kg rests on top of a large flat mass of 1,000,000 kg (10^6 kg). They are at rest (relative to the sun) in space. The car has a battery and an electric motor with 100% efficiency. We can assume that when a torque is applied to the wheels, they roll on the surface of the flat mass without any slippage or rolling resistance.

The engine applied a torque to the wheel for 1 second in such a way that the force on the car is exactly 1N.

m1 = 1 kg, m2 = 10^6 kg, dt = 1s, F = 1 N.Using F = ma, we get:
F = m1 * a1;
a1 = F/m1 = 1/1;
a1 = 1 N/s^2 (acceleration of car). Since dt = 1 s, we get:
v1 = 1 m/s;

Similarly, we find that that
V2 = -0.000001 m/s = -10^-6 m/s.

The principle of conservation of momentum gives the same result.
Now the car is traveling along the flat mass with a velocity of 1m/s (relative to the sun) and a relative velocity of 1.000001m/s relative to the flat mass.

The kinetic energy of the car relative to the sun is KE1 = ½ * m1*v1^2.
KE1 = ½*1*1*1 = 0.5 J.

The kinetic energy of the flat relative to the sun is KE2 = ½ * m2*v2^2.
KE1 = ½*10^6*10^-6*10^-6 = 5*10^-7 J.

Total KE is 0.5000005 J.

All this energy came from the battery of the car and all of it got converted to kinetic energy.

At this point the engine applied another torque to the wheel for 1 second second in such a way that the force on the car is exactly 1N.

Can we assume that the amount of energy required if almost the same for the second period of applied force as it was for the first? Why?
 
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bendanish said:
Can we assume that the amount of energy required if almost the same for the second period of applied force as it was for the first?
What does the definition of work say about applying the same force, for the same duration, but at a higher speed?
 
Since the work done on a body is equal to the force times distance covered when the force is being applied. So in this case more work will have to done to apply the same force for the same duration. Meaning more energy is required to achieve the same amount of acceleartion.

But let's look at the actual power transmission from the battery to the engine to the wheels. When the car is moving at constant velocity and there are no power loses, the engine does not apply any torque. Assuming that the same amount of power is flowing from the battery to the engine, am I right to assume that the torque transferred to the wheels will be less than in the first case?
 
bendanish said:
the torque transferred to the wheels will be less than in the first case?
It's not clear to me what cases you are comparing.
 
Case 1: Car is at rest and engine delivers torque for one second.

Case 2: Car is moving at a constant velocity on the flat mass and the engine delivers a torque using the same amount of energy as in case 1.
 
bendanish said:
Case 2: Car is moving at a constant velocity on the flat mass and the engine delivers a torque using the same amount of energy as in case 1.
Didn't you just conclude yourself, that assuming no loses, there won't be any torque in this case?
 

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