News Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[nismaratwork]

Archery targets instead of cross-hairs, huh? Does that mean they were advocating the use of bows and arrows?

Isn't it about time for the silliness to end?

Yes, you get the last word, brilliant.

Back to the topic at hand, Giffords has had successful surgery to remove bone fragments from her eye. This is very good news, as they felt secure enough to operate on something less than live-saving.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/17/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1

NEW: Giffords could be discharged in "days to weeks"
NEW: There are indications she recognizes her husband
NEW: The other two victims still hospitalized are doing well

 

[Evo]

and the shooter had no contact with Kelly.

Actually, it's quite likely that the shooter saw Kelly's ads. It's possible those ads prompted him to buy the gun and plan the whole thing. We don't know.

 

[nismaratwork]

Actually, it's quite likely that the shooter saw Kelly's ads. It's possible those ads prompted him to buy the gun and plan the whole thing. We don't know.

True; if he could have done this for demented reasons, he could have done them for that unless I'm right and he's Schizophrenic: DT... I'd expect to have heard or read more about his plan; he'd be in no mental state to keep secrets, as we've seen.

 

[Proton Soup]

Do we REALLY think it's a good twist that people are conflating the nearly hysterical rhetoric of a survivor of a shooting, and the shooter. The fact that people on the right and left want to blame external forces is just another way of saying, "we have no responsibility for ignoring problems like Loughner, and when this story goes away, we'll go back to that." Better and easier to live believing he's a one-off copy... right?

yup, the torch-wielding mob is all ready to send Loughner on a dirt nap. mental illness is just a character flaw, after all. maybe if he'd gone to church, this wouldn't have happened.

 

[nismaratwork]

yup, the torch-wielding mob is all ready to send Loughner on a dirt nap. mental illness is just a character flaw, after all. maybe if he'd gone to church, this wouldn't have happened.

I'd say that's both factually accurate, and very perceptive. Sad too, but you didn't make the world, so I guess asking you to fix it would be unreasonable... right?

 

[WhoWee]

No she didn't. The Democratic leadership council color-coded states by popular vote, including putting archery targets over states that the GOP had taken by single-digits. They were pointing out to their membership and donors where gains could be made with extra investment in money and manpower.

Unlike Palin, they didn't put cross-hairs on candidates' districts, nor name anybody. The "both sides do it" argument is pretty thin. This thread is about Giffords' shooting and her (hopefully!) recovery, but I couldn't let that comment stand without pointing out the obvious qualitative differences between the graphics.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171

Thank you turbo for pointing out the differences - can we now move forward?

 

[WhoWee]

Actually, it's quite likely that the shooter saw Kelly's ads. It's possible those ads prompted him to buy the gun and plan the whole thing. We don't know.

I'm not aware of him attending one of Kelly'e events - he may have watched the 9/11 conspiracy films and decided to kill all Government officials - we really don't know.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm not aware of him attending one of Kelly'e events - he may have watched the 9/11 conspiracy films and decided to kill all Government officials - we really don't know.

I think that's exactly Evo's point.

 

[Proton Soup]

emphasis mine


Oh man, talk about scathing words. Touché!

well, i suppose the death threat made the camera-as-weapon part a wee bit more ominous.

 

[Evo]

I'm not aware of him attending one of Kelly'e events - he may have watched the 9/11 conspiracy films and decided to kill all Government officials - we really don't know.

He didn't have to attend anything, he might have, he could have watched him on tv and read his ads. Why do you find that hard to believe? Do you have a list of every move he made last year, every tv commercial he watched, news reports, etc? No? Kelly was campaining where the shooter lived. The shooter would have to have lived in a hole to not have seen and heard him.

 

[turbo]

Actually, it's quite likely that the shooter saw Kelly's ads. It's possible those ads prompted him to buy the gun and plan the whole thing. We don't know.

We can't speak to his motivation, but it would have been virtually impossible for him to have missed Kelly's ads on radio and TV in such a heated campaign.

Maine is a small-market, but we get saturated with political ads during major (congressional/presidential) campaigns. You'd have to live in a cave to miss them.

 

[WhoWee]

We can't speak to his motivation, but it would have been virtually impossible for him to have missed Kelly's ads on radio and TV in such a heated campaign.

Why is that - how often did he listen to the radio? How often did he watch TV? Did he listen/watch the channels Kelly advertised on during the times of the ads? Please support.

 

[WhoWee]

He didn't have to attend anything, he might have, he could have watched him on tv and read his ads. Why do you find that hard to believe? Do you have a list of every move he made last year, every tv commercial he watched, news reports, etc? No? Kelly was campaining where the shooter lived. The shooter would have to have lived in a hole to not have seen and heard him.

This is what I posted "If not, why not - Rep. Gifford wasn't shot with an M-16 and the shooter had no contact with Kelly."

When I said "contact" - I meant personal contact. We know the shooter had a verbal exchange and a written exchange with Rep. Giffords. I am not aware of any direct connection to Kelly?

 

[Proton Soup]

maybe he was influenced by Giffords' ads. he couldn't have missed them.

 

[nismaratwork]

Wow... so... there's actual news on condition of 2 people mentioned in the OP, but we're back to which political candidate "inspired" the psychotic?!

 

[Proton Soup]

Wow... so... there's actual news on condition of 2 people mentioned in the OP, but we're back to which political candidate "inspired" the psychotic?!

yup.

 

[Evo]

This is what I posted "If not, why not - Rep. Gifford wasn't shot with an M-16 and the shooter had no contact with Kelly."

When I said "contact" - I meant personal contact. We know the shooter had a verbal exchange and a written exchange with Rep. Giffords. I am not aware of any direct connection to Kelly?

Kelly was Gifford's opponent. Loughner could very well have supported Kelly against Giffords, Giffords won. To say that Loughner was not aware of Kelly is mind boggling, of course he had to know.

 

[mheslep]

The "both sides do it" argument is pretty thin.

No, your contention to the contrary is pretty thin.
http://washingtonindependent.com/100315/manchin-shoots-down-cap-and-trade

Gov. Joe Manchin (D) in his suddenly tight Senate race in West Virginia, ... It also represents a rare twofer, in which Manchin both touts his National Rifle Association endorsement and literally shoots a piece of environmental legislation in the same pull of a trigger:

 

[WhoWee]

Kelly was Gifford's opponent. Loughner could very well have supported Kelly against Giffords, Giffords won. To say that Loughner was not aware of Kelly is mind boggling, of course he had to know.

I watched a reporter walk down the street in New York last week asking people to pick the Vice President from a list of 4 names (including Biden) - none picked Biden - but Hillary fared well. I don't know what this distrurbed person was aware of or not? All I said was that he didn't have contact - meaning personal contact.

 

[Evo]

All I said was that he didn't have contact - meaning personal contact.

You can't say that, you don't know that.

I also don't kow why you keep bringing that up either, why would he need to have had personal contact with Kelly?

 

[WhoWee]

You can't say that, you don't know that.

I also don't kow why you keep bringing that up either, why would he need to have had personal contact with Kelly?

I'm really not trying to be difficult Evo. The ad invited people to come down and shoot M-16's with Kelly. As far as I know - the shooter didn't participate. Unless someone has found a direct connection that he followed Kelley - Kelley is irrelevant to the conversation.

On the other hand, the shooter did have personal contact with his victim - spoken and written. In his sick mind - her response in Spanish at an earlier rally (which still doesn't make sense - unless she wasn't even responding to him - he just thought she was?) might have been his breaking point?

 

[turbo]

You can't say that, you don't know that.

I also don't kow why you keep bringing that up either, why would he need to have had personal contact with Kelly?

You're right. He wouldn't have to have had personal contact with Kelly. Deranged of not, Loughner is politically-aware. He went to a previous Giffords meet-and-greet and he saved the form-letter and the envelope that her staff sent him, and wrote comments on them. The notion that he was blissfully unaware of the Giffords vs Kelley race is laughable, at best.

Perhaps some day we will get some clarification on his motivation, but it does not serve us well to treat him like a random nut that cracked. He planned, and he bragged about it in writing. Now, why?

 

[turbo]

BTW, Giffords' husband told hospital staff that she smiled at him and rubbed his back. Good sign.

 

[nismaratwork]

No... Loughner was NOT politically aware... you can't be both psychotic and that coherent. Politically aware implies that somehow his politics and assessment of the politics of others reflected reality; from what I can tell that's not the case.

It sucks... I know, but if this young man is as crazy as he seems... there's no one to blame here. This is just what happens when you have .3%-.7% suffering from Schizophrenia, and 300 million people. SOMEONE is going to slip through EVERY crack... it's just sheer odds.

The state of our mental health system just means that tragedies are more frequent, although they're often more quiet and personal.

 

[Evo]

I'm really not trying to be difficult Evo. The ad invited people to come down and shoot M-16's with Kelly. As far as I know - the shooter didn't participate. Unless someone has found a direct connection that he followed Kelley - Kelley is irrelevant to the conversation.

On the other hand, the shooter did have personal contact with his victim - spoken and written. In his sick mind - her response in Spanish at an earlier rally (which still doesn't make sense - unless she wasn't even responding to him - he just thought she was?) might have been his breaking point?

She didn't respond in Spanish according to his friend that was there. I don't know who started that Spanish rumour, I know it got printed somewhere but was corrected. I posted the friend's version earlier in this thread in an article.

Just seeing Kelly's gun ads opposing Giffords could be all he needed to plant the idea of shooting her. Kelly could be extremeley relevant YOU DON'T KNOW. Unless you can provide an article that says Loughner says he didn't know of kelly, your posts amount to misinformation, so stop. You can say you don't think he did, I think he did since Kelly was all over the news where Loughner lived. You cannot say that he didn't, that's against the rules to state personal opinion as fact.

 

[Evo]

You're right. He wouldn't have to have had personal contact with Kelly. Deranged of not, Loughner is politically-aware. He went to a previous Giffords meet-and-greet and he saved the form-letter and the envelope that her staff sent him, and wrote comments on them. The notion that he was blissfully unaware of the Giffords vs Kelley race is laughable, at best.

Perhaps some day we will get some clarification on his motivation, but it does not serve us well to treat him like a random nut that cracked. He planned, and he bragged about it in writing. Now, why?

Exactly.

 

[nismaratwork]

BTW, Giffords' husband told hospital staff that she smiled at him and rubbed his back. Good sign.

If the report is accurate, that would be amazing, but the doctors seemed a bit uncertain. The insertion of a feeding tube and the lack of attempts at vocalization are not good signs unfortunately. Then again, this is still so absurdly early in her recovery.

 

[nismaratwork]

...but he is a random nut that cracked. There are real dangers posed by this kind of political rhetoric, not the least that kids might believe this kind of language is appropriate. Those dangers however, have nothing to do with Loughner.

Much like smoking tobacco, there are a TON of great reasons to not do it, but the trick is to focus on the truth, and not counter lies with lies.

In this case, let's not try to make a teachable moment out of one that is as nonsensical as it gets.

 

[WhoWee]

You're right. He wouldn't have to have had personal contact with Kelly. Deranged of not, Loughner is politically-aware. He went to a previous Giffords meet-and-greet and he saved the form-letter and the envelope that her staff sent him, and wrote comments on them. The notion that he was blissfully unaware of the Giffords vs Kelley race is laughable, at best.

Perhaps some day we will get some clarification on his motivation, but it does not serve us well to treat him like a random nut that cracked. He planned, and he bragged about it in writing. Now, why?

my bold

Again, support your comments turbo. All we know for certain is the deranged gunman was aware of his first victim and had 2 previous contacts with her - one verbal and one written. Show proof or retract your "laughable" statement.

 

[WhoWee]

She didn't respond in Spanish according to his friend that was there. I don't know who started that Spanish rumour, I know it got printed somewhere but was corrected. I posted the friend's version earlier in this thread in an article.

Just seeing Kelly's gun ads opposing Giffords could be all he needed to plant the idea of shooting her. Kelly could be extremeley relevant YOU DON'T KNOW. Unless you can provide an article that says Loughner says he didn't know of kelly, your posts amount to misinformation, so stop. You can say you don't think he did, I think he did since Kelly was all over the news where Loughner lived. You cannot say that he didn't, that's against the rules to state personal opinion as fact.

The absence of Kelley information at his residence infers he was not aware of Kelley. Otherwise it is my opinion that he had no contact with Kelly.

 

[turbo]

my bold

Again, support your comments turbo. All we know for certain is the deranged gunman was aware of his first victim and had 2 previous contacts with her - one verbal and one written. Show proof or retract your "laughable" statement.

You're playing games with forum rules. The police have already recovered the written materials from Giffords' staff from his home. Loughner wrote comments on those papers, including "die *****" and a statement indicating that he had planned the assault. There may be more, but what the police have released already is support enough.

 

[WhoWee]

You're playing games with forum rules. The police have already recovered the written materials from Giffords' staff from his home. Loughner wrote comments on those papers, including "die *****" and a statement indicating that he had planned the assault. There may be more, but what the police have released already is support enough.

Did any of the materials mention Kelley?

 

[nismaratwork]

Would you two take it to PM if it's going to be like this? You're both quite a bit better than this, and we all know it.

 

[jreelawg]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but friends of Loughner had said that he underwent a dramatic change and started to unravel after beginning to abuse drugs, especially alcahol and salvia, as well as LSD, and shrooms.

As far as I am concerned, his abuse of salvia, LSD, and shrooms, was most likely the root of his mental illness. I'm kind of surprised that with all the talk about his mental illness, I haven't heard anyone make the connection.

 

[Evo]

Did any of the materials mention Kelley?

None of the materials mentioned buying a gun or buying the extended magazines either and we know he had those. Nothing was found stating he knew Gifford's was going to be at Safeway or that he was going to Safeway to shoot people either. So what's your point? This is getting silly.

 

[nismaratwork]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but friends of Loughner had said that he underwent a dramatic change and started to unravel after beginning to abuse drugs, especially alcahol and salvia, as well as LSD, and shrooms.

As far as I am concerned, his abuse of salvia, LSD, and shrooms, was most likely the root of his mental illness. I'm kind of surprised that with all the talk about his mental illness, I haven't heard anyone make the connection.

His progressions as described isn't consistent with that conclusion, but his use of at least marijuana could have hastened the onset of schizophrenia, and worsened disorganized thought. It cannot however, have been the CAUSE of a mental illness like this. Prolonged amphetamine abuse can lead to psychosis, and yes, LSD can have rare reactions, but both tend to be PROFOUND and obvious... as well as fleeting. The rare patient who does not recover is so rare as to be nearly legendary. It happens, but if it's a result of drugs, or drugs + pre-existing mental illness? It's rarely known.

 

[Proton Soup]

None of the materials mentioned buying a gun or buying the extended magazines either and we know he had those. Nothing was found stating he knew Gifford's was going to be at Safeway or that he was going to Safeway to shoot people either. So what's your point? This is getting silly.

yes, it is silly. why are you throwing your own speculations into this thread and defending them as though they are truth?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I never thought it would be necessary to do this at Physics Forums, but apparently this thread has a slightly different 'flavor'...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion][/PLAIN]
Conversation

A conversation is communication between two or more people. Conversations are the ideal form of communication in some respects, since they allow people with different views on a topic to learn from each other. A speech, on the other hand, is an oral presentation by one person directed at a group. For a successful conversation, the partners must achieve a workable balance of contributions. A successful conversation includes mutually interesting connections between the speakers or things that the speakers know. For this to happen, those engaging in conversation must find a topic on which they both can relate to in some sense. Those engaging in conversation naturally tend to relate the other speaker's statements to themselves. They may insert aspects of their lives into their replies, to relate to the other person's opinions or points of conversation.

Conversation is indispensable for the successful accomplishment of almost all activities between people, especially the coordination of work, the formation of friendship and for learning.

Sigh...

(I’ll get back to other posts later...)

 

[Evo]

yes, it is silly. why are you throwing your own speculations into this thread and defending them as though they are truth?

My *opinion* that he might have seen Kelly's ads against Giffords. That was it.

WhooWee stated as a fact, repeatedly, that Loughner never met Kelly. First, he stated it repeatedly as a fact, and he could not back it up when asked for a source, and no one in the thread said they met, so it wasn't even on topic of what was said.

Is that enough?

 

[nismaratwork]

This comment has nothing to do with Sarah Palin as a cause or contributor to this shooting... if people use this as a springboard for that, it's going to be utterly disingenuous.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/17/palin-i-am-not-going-to-shut-up/?iref=NS1

This dumb bunny, and I think we can all agree that she's stupid, but benign... actually tried to justify the "blood libel" comment. What. A. Twit. She should have the good grace to defend herself without making the debate even MORE about this useless woman who clearly has no intent to run for any office except, 'making cash'.

If this were Boehner, or Pelosi, I'd get the need to be so forward in all of this... but Palin isn't even a politician anymore. Just use your damned judgment and think, "gosh, maybe my EIGHT MINUTE statement was enough!" Did anyone involved in this want or care to hear another interview from this fool, especially when her only message is, "I'm not going to shut up!"? Great Sarah, thrilling, but just because SOME people turned and blamed one of the most publicly polarizing figures currently in circulation is how she's making tons of money! You don't get it both ways: celebrity is unpredictable, sometimes dangerous, and often filled with lies about you. Deal with it long enough to get the injured out of the hospital.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

This comment has nothing to do with Sarah Palin

I’m very glad that you said that. Because if this comment was about Sarah Palin, you must provide *proof that holds in court*, otherwise it’s a brutal violation of the "New & Homemade PF Rules"!

()

 

[jreelawg]

Strangely, "Grey's Anatomy" episode 11 of season 7 entitled "disarm", which aired 2 days before the Arizona shooting, featured a plot in which a student named Jared shot 26 people at a college campus. Also, one of the main characters name is Arizona.

I wonder if Jared Loughner had watched this episode?

 

[nismaratwork]

Strangely, "Grey's Anatomy" episode 11 of season 7 entitled "disarm", which aired 2 days before the Arizona shooting, featured a plot in which a student named Jared shot 26 people at a college campus. Also, one of the main characters name is Arizona.

I wonder if Jared Loughner had watched this episode?

I believe a clear link has already been demonstrated between watching ANY Grey's Anatomy, and going on a killing spree.

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh boy... it seems that this event WAS captured on security cameras, and the Washington Post has at least seen them. They apparently include Loughner walking out of the Safeway, up to Giffords, and shooting her, shooting others, and showing John Roll (the judge) shielding a staffer with his back, and being shot and killed with a wound to the back.

It SOUNDS like this has already been released, or leaked... I can't believe that anyone involved with this was so stupid and callous; I can only hope it doesn't reach the internet.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/19/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2

note: This above article contains comments from Giffords' husband, which are not a part of want I'm talking about.

 

[arildno]

The following is a portrait of the parents of Jared Lee Loughner.
It seems clear that they were devoted to their son, but were awkward at taking confrontations with him:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...abrielle-giffords-jared-loughner-parents.html

It is not a crime to be lenient towards your own child, but being afraid to take appropriate steps is not a very good parenting style. In rare cases (as this one is), letting one's child have too long a leash will lead to a possibly preventable tragedy.

 

[nismaratwork]

The following is a portrait of the parents of Jared Lee Loughner.
It seems clear that they were devoted to their son, but were awkward at taking confrontations with him:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...abrielle-giffords-jared-loughner-parents.html

It is not a crime to be lenient towards your own child, but being afraid to take appropriate steps is not a very good parenting style. In rare cases (as this one is), letting one's child have too long a leash will lead to a possibly preventable tragedy.

It does seem that a family already strained by an eccentric father, and generally reclusive demeanor could have benefited from being able to ask for help. It's unfortunate that they didn't, but from the time-line I wonder how long they had to realize just how bad things were getting? After all, I have no idea if the parents were internet-savvy, so they may have been more out of the loop than we'd assume.

It's sad all around: the victims can blame... what?... the actions of a man living in another crazy internal world? The family of the killer is going to be hounded until they die, and Loughner?... who knows. If he's as mentally ill as he appears, then he acted in what he believed to be rational and reasonable manners. That's the misery of psychosis: people act irrationally to us, but within the framework of their delusional world, they have no choice.

I find this entire situation sad, but nothing beats the 9 year old girl, the other 5 killed, and a bright woman shot through the head in the prime of life.

 

[arildno]

I think there are very few parents who are fully aware of what their children are doing on the internet.

Many crazy people are able to selectively contain&disclose their private rantings.

Furthermore, Jared was a bright kid from working class background. His parents may have regarded his ideas about semantics&grammar as rather incomprehensible, but that their incomprehension was more their fault (due to their lack of Education), rather than signs of madness in Jared.

 

[nismaratwork]

I think there are very few parents who are fully aware of what their children are doing on the internet.

Many crazy people are able to selectively contain&disclose their private rantings.[/]quote]

Both true, and the latter especially with DD: Disorganized type. In that, you get less ranting and rambling (at first), and more distortions in the mind of the sufferer. It's no coincidence that this type tends to be one of the rare forms of mental illness that can really fulminate and explode. He told crazy things to a lot of people, but they'd have to compare notes to realize that it was more than just pot and an emotional crisis. I'd say this is an argument for a higher standard of mental health professional in schools.

Furthermore, Jared was a bright kid from working class background. His parents may have regarded his ideas about semantics&grammar as rather incomprehensible, but that their incomprehension was more their fault (due to their lack of Education), rather than signs of madness in Jared.

Absolutely true... it seems that his father at least started to worry, but that was at the end of nearly a year at home. It's also unclear if his father was concerned about mental breakdown, or just obvious odd behaviour (shaved head, black bag with ammo , "mumbling".

I'd add: if he IS schizophrenic, then he'd still be in the midst of the emergence and development of this illness. His story is only uncommon in its tragic ending.

 

[Al68]

Oh boy... it seems that this event WAS captured on security cameras...and showing John Roll (the judge) shielding a staffer with his back, and being shot and killed with a wound to the back.

That's pretty amazing if true. That's the kind of thing that only a parent would do for their child, and rarely in any other case.

 

[nismaratwork]

That's pretty amazing if true. That's the kind of thing that only a parent would do for their child, and rarely in any other case.

It is an impressive action if he took it, although I honestly hope we never have a chance to confirm or falsify it. Those tapes do not need to be public... at least, not for quite some time.