Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

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On January 8, 2011, U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot at a grocery store in Tucson, Arizona, during a constituent meeting, resulting in her death. Reports indicate she was shot in the head at point-blank range, with conflicting information about her condition during surgery. The shooter, identified as 22-year-old Jared Loughner, also killed Federal Judge John Roll and injured at least 18 others, including a child. Eyewitness accounts describe a chaotic scene with multiple gunshots and severe injuries.

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  • #421
The Question that Loughner had asked of Giffords in 2007 that triggered the entire chain of events was: What good is government when words have no meaning?

He wasn't satisfied with her answer and mentioned it frequently to his few friends. He never mentioned it in a classroom.
 
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  • #422
edward said:
No the FBI and ATF monitors gun purchases. As far as loghner's contacts with law enforcement. They were with the Campus Police of Pima Community College. There were five contacts in all.

He had one contact with the Sheriff's department. He was cited for possessing drug paraphernalia

Loughner was finally expelled from the school in September. He couldn't go back until a private mental health evaluation was done. It had to show that he was not a danger to other people.

The College administration never pursued it or reported it. If anyone dropped the ball here it was the Community College.. Oddly though as soon as Campus police showed up Loughner calmed down and acted reasonably normal.

The guy was also clever enough to keep telling teachers that they were violating his constitutional rights.

Yet not clever enough to understand what those rights were, or how they applied.

Honestly, I don't know how to apply the term, "clever" to someone so divorced from reality...

@Arildno: Agreed... this person clearly was not only unable to connect, but even understand the pain or sorrow of others. I disagree on the 'why'... I suspect that in his planning he was motivated by persecutorial delusions (his belief that he was being monitored and controlled), and saw them not as people, or figures; they were his enemies... I suspect that by that point he was convinced that pretty much everyone was. His silence in the face of what is some of the best and most finely tuned interrogative techniques the FBI has says a LOT, especially when contrasted with his clear, brief responses to the judge at his hearing.
 
  • #423
edward said:
The Question that Loughner had asked of Giffords in 2007 that triggered the entire chain of events was: What good is government when words have no meaning?

He wasn't satisfied with her answer and mentioned it frequently to his few friends. He never mentioned it in a classroom.

Remember that for him, a person who believed in a kind of arcane brainwashing through language, that was an earth-shaking question. By all accounts she answered that bizarre question to the best of her ability, and no doubt he was outraged that the world remained unshaken. So, now we're shaken, and somewhere in that shaved pinhead is the knowledge that NOW, people have to wait on him, and now we're shaken by his "revelations".

Of course, we're shaken by the atrocities, not his views, but the psychology of such a person isn't amenable to that kind of thinking. If it doesn't link to him, his life, his internal world... it just doesn't register emotionally. Remember he 'knows the system of mind control', making him the keeper of 'special knowledge'.

Honestly, he's not exactly atypical, which I've maintained since page 1.
 
  • #424
Evo said:
Actually, they did pursue it with his parents. See my post https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3077829&postcount=409

My empathy for his parents is now severely tempered with a measure of disappointment and suspicion... yet arildno said it... dragons. I can't help but feel badly for whoever these faceless parents of a human-monster.
 
  • #425
Evo said:
Actually, they did pursue it with his parents. See my post https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3077829&postcount=409

That is correct Pima Police did take a letter to his parents. His parents have lived in the same house for thirty years yet are seldom seen by their neighbors. The father called a neighbor last night and said that he needed help. He asked the next door neighbor if he would go out to the mail box and get the mail.

That was the first time the neighbor had ever spoken to him or he to Lochner senior. The best that the neighbor could describe the Lochner's was that they were like Mountain people and kept to themselves.

The houses in that subdivision are on lots that are a bit under one quarter acre.
 
  • #426
edward said:
That is correct Pima Police did take a letter to his parents. His parents have lived in the same house for thirty years yet are seldom seen by their neighbors. The father called a neighbor last night and said that he needed help. He and asked the next door neighbor if he would go out to the mail box and get the mail.

That was the first time the neighbor had ever spoken to him or he to the neighbor. The best that the neighbor could describe the Lochner's was that they were like Mountain people and kept to themselves.

The houses in that subdivision are on lots that are a bit under one quarter acre.

First order relatives of schizophrenic children often exhibit a higher incidence of Schizophrenia, Schizophreniform Disorder, and a few other behavioral oddities as-yet to be explained. This still means that most first order relatives have no issues, but to find a family of mentally ill people raising a mentally ill child doesn't shock me.

I'd suspect abuse, but the age, situation, and pathology don't fit.
 
  • #427
edward said:
The Question that Loughner had asked of Giffords in 2007 that triggered the entire chain of events was: What good is government when words have no meaning?

He wasn't satisfied with her answer and mentioned it frequently to his few friends. He never mentioned it in a classroom.

i believe she responded to him in spanish, which i imagine he took as an insult, especially if he didn't understand the response.

chain of events seems to be that he wasn't so nuts in high school, had some big breakup with a girlfriend, started falling apart, getting desocialized from old friends, and progressively more insane. i suspect there is something here to do with her being a woman. it would be interesting to see a pic of the old girlfriend, to see if there is resemblance.
 
  • #428
Proton Soup said:
i believe she responded to him in spanish, which i imagine he took as an insult, especially if he didn't understand the response.
I've heard two versions of this, one was that she didn't answer directly, which makes sense, I mean how do you respond to utter nonsense? And then one version that she answered in Spanish which makes absolutely no sense. Why would you answer an English constituent in a foreign language?

I haven't seen anything about his girlfriend, can you post the link. (not doubting you, just curiosity)
 
  • #429
Evo said:
I've heard two versions of this, one was that she didn't answer directly, which makes sense, I mean how do you respond to utter nonsense? And then one version that she answered in Spanish which makes absolutely no sense. Why would you answer an English constituent in a foreign language?

I haven't seen anything about his girlfriend, can you post the link. (not doubting you, just curiosity)

i don't remember where i originally read it, but here are a couple of articles i just googled that mention it. no real details, tho.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/01/tuscon_shooters_obsession_with.html?f=most-commented-24h-5

High school friends of Loughner's described him as apolitical, except for some criticism of the Bush administration. They say he was an average kid who spent much of his free time playing saxophone in the school band. But around the tenth grade, after a breakup with his girlfriend, Loughner started experimenting with drugs and fell in with the wrong crowd. His friends cite drug abuse as the reason Loughner dropped out his senior year. Although the case was dismissed, Loughner was also charged with possession of drugs and drug paraphernalia in 2007.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/Arizona+shooting+suspect+became+outcast+high+school/4088147/story.html

In tenth grade everything started to fall apart. High school friend Alex Montanaro told the Wall Street Journal Mr. Loughner took a turn after a break-up with a girlfriend. He started hanging out with drug users, grew distant from his friends and “really became an outcast,” said Mr. Montanaro. Classmate Catie Parker described him as a “pot head” and by grade eleven his marks had dropped. He didn’t bother returning for grade twelve.
 
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  • #430
nismaratwork said:
@Arildno: Agreed... this person clearly was not only unable to connect, but even understand the pain or sorrow of others. I disagree on the 'why'... I suspect that in his planning he was motivated by persecutorial delusions (his belief that he was being monitored and controlled), and saw them not as people, or figures; they were his enemies... I suspect that by that point he was convinced that pretty much everyone was. His silence in the face of what is some of the best and most finely tuned interrogative techniques the FBI has says a LOT, especially when contrasted with his clear, brief responses to the judge at his hearing.

In a way, he may have felt such mind-control and oppressedness very keenly:

Alone in his room, half-verbalized thoughts whizzed through his head that FELT to be absolutely right and true.
But the moment he tried to formulate these insights verbally, to others, or even just on a piece of paper, only silly trivialities or nonsense was to be found.
Somebody evidently had robbed him of the communicative device of language, so that truly important ideas remained locked in his brain

Never could he dare to contemplate that what whizzed through his mind WAS just..nonsense, and that the joy he felt in those moments were totally..unfounded.

For whatever other sources of joy did he have in his life than the insane ramblings within his mind?

Easier to blame the government for exercising mind control, in particular what, through grammar, seems to make sense and what doesn't...

Locked unhappily within himself, he would still have a sense of freedom there, and a meagre resource of happiness.
 
  • #431
Proton Soup said:
i believe she responded to him in spanish, which i imagine he took as an insult, especially if he didn't understand the response.

chain of events seems to be that he wasn't so nuts in high school, had some big breakup with a girlfriend, started falling apart, getting desocialized from old friends, and progressively more insane. i suspect there is something here to do with her being a woman. it would be interesting to see a pic of the old girlfriend, to see if there is resemblance.

Given the age, it's the sad, but normal progress of an undiagnosed and untreated schizophrenic. His father has been described as, "being sometimes hostile", although neighbors don't seem to know why. He is described as giving, "the silent treatment", again, for no apparent reason.

If this isn't schizophrenia, I'll be genuinely shocked.


@Arildno: You've described the internal world of a spree killer very well. In this case, as I keep saying I think there's more, but the portrait you pain is still very accurate with the addition that he would be UNABLE to realize, not just admit, that his thoughts were increasingly paranoid and disorganized.

What does a man feel as he loses his mind? Doubtless one of the first things at the outset is fear, and a need to pull those pieces back together. Sadly, the perceptual and processing issues would make that a jumble of his own internal world, and cut him off from the ability to test reality properly. Humans want control, and believe we have more control than we do... and that's when we're sane! It seems to be a common theme that OTHERS are INTRUDING... that the disorganization isn't a problem with the the ill person, but everyone else; truly the epitome of 'I am the only sane man', which you see echoed in his statements about intelligence and literacy.

If you become convinced that X entity is imposing thoughts, reading your thoughts or (another common phrase we hear) 'Projecting thoughts'... then when you believe someone is essentially waging what you and I would call magic psychic warfare, they react badly. Most break down, and end on the streets, with family, on drugs, or they get help. It's that group which remains untreated which presents the primary risk to themselves and others.


@All: Giffords is now, apparently, able to breathe on her own (still intubated of course) and the sedation has been reduced.
 
  • #432
nismaratwork said:
What does a man feel as he loses his mind? Doubtless one of the first things at the outset is fear, and a need to pull those pieces back together. Sadly, the perceptual and processing issues would make that a jumble of his own internal world, and cut him off from the ability to test reality properly. Humans want control, and believe we have more control than we do... and that's when we're sane! It seems to be a common theme that OTHERS are INTRUDING... that the disorganization isn't a problem with the the ill person, but everyone else; truly the epitome of 'I am the only sane man', which you see echoed in his statements about intelligence and literacy.

nismaratwork, your revelations are interestingly insightful. I would argue that regardless of how I might feel about a particular situation, I would never resort to violence, unless absolutely necessary for the preservation of life or limb. It's simply what I was brought up to believe.
 
  • #433
mugaliens said:
I would argue that regardless of how I might feel about a particular situation, I would never resort to violence, unless absolutely necessary for the preservation of life or limb.

So your argument is that even if went insane, you'd still remain rational about the situation?
 
  • #434
Office_Shredder said:
So your argument is that even if went insane, you'd still remain rational about the situation?

I'm sorry, Office_Shredder, but your post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

If you would, please, restate whatever it is you're trying to state.

Thanks.
 
  • #435
mugaliens said:
nismaratwork, your revelations are interestingly insightful. I would argue that regardless of how I might feel about a particular situation, I would never resort to violence, unless absolutely necessary for the preservation of life or limb. It's simply what I was brought up to believe.

I believe you're a deeply rational person, and one who is deeply centered in your sense of what is right, and what is wrong. I think you also have a brain that's wired in the right ways, and you've dedicated yourself to improving your lot in life, and serving your country... and more importantly your people. I doubt you'd ever harm someone except in the most extreme circumstances, and unlike most you know what it means to be in violence, to be pressed; your reactions have been mined by experience.

I find the same is often true of the most stable Paramedics, ER Attendings, and other professions that require both compassion, and leaving that work at work. Firemen, Police officers, fall into a different kind of psychological category, with the latter being obviously too numerous and diverse to easily analyze.

Office: Huh? He never stipulated insanity, just strong feelings.
 
  • #439
WhoWee said:
They need to lose their tax status.

The media has to fall out of love with them, too. No one - left, right, or center - wants to know what WBC thinks about anything.
 
  • #440
lisab said:
The media has to fall out of love with them, too. No one - left, right, or center - wants to know what WBC thinks about anything.

It's their name. If they were the WMC (Westboro Motorcycle Club) - we wouldn't know anything about them.
 
  • #441
lisab said:
The media has to fall out of love with them, too. No one - left, right, or center - wants to know what WBC thinks about anything.
Please!

There are biker groups that would gladly take care of the WBC if law-enforcement would look the other way. Hells Angels would provide funeral escorts. The Iron Horsemen even scare the Angels and would willingly provide coverage. WBC is a family-group of loons that want to exploit pain and suffering in order to get coverage for their own twisted brand of "christianity".
 
  • #442
WBC is a family of lawyers that pretend to be a church so they don't pay tax and can get special status. They do outrageous dirtabg things to see if anyone tries to stop them, and then they sue anyone that tries. They even sued the father of that dead soldier whose funeral they destroyed!
 
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  • #443
Evo said:
WBC is a family of lawyers that pretend to be a church so they don't pay tax ansd can get special status. They do outrageoes dirtabg things to see if anyone tried to stop them, and then they sue anyone that tries. They even sued the father of that dead soldier whose funeral they destroyed!
Is there any way that we can get "church" and "religious freedom" re-defined so that actual churches are covered and nasty fringe crap is not? If not, why? I shouldn't be able to gather a handful of idiots in my house and call it a "church" and get tax-advantaged treatment for it. I'd rather rescind all tax-exemptions for religious groups and tax them like any other other business, then grant them exemptions based on their charitable works.
 
  • #444
Evo said:
WBC is a family of lawyers that pretend to be a church so they don't pay tax ansd can get special status. They do outrageoes dirtabg things to see if anyone tried to stop them, and then they sue anyone that tries. They even sued the father of that dead soldier whose funeral they destroyed!

Actually, the father sued the church and won, but the case was appealed to the US Supreme Court and the decision hasn't been published yet.

On the other hand:
In 2003, before the fall of Saddam Hussein during the Iraq War, Phelps wrote a letter to Saddam praising his regime for being, in his opinion, "the only Muslim state that allows the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to be freely and openly preached on the streets." Furthermore, he stated that he would like to send a delegation to Baghdad to "preach the Gospel" for one week. Saddam granted permission, and a group of WBC congregants traveled to Iraq to protest against the U.S. The WBC members stood on the streets of Baghdad holding signs condemning both Bill and Hillary Clinton, as well as anal sex.

I wonder if they met Badhdad Bob.
 
  • #445
I guess I didn't understand what nismaratwork was referring to in the post mugaliens quoted
 
  • #446
BobG said:
Actually, the father sued the church and won, but the case was appealed to the US Supreme Court and the decision hasn't been published yet.
The dad's award was reversed and he was ordered to pay the WBC, but I do see where it's been appealed.

Good stuff on the WBC.

http://blog.stanfordreview.org/2010/01/28/countdown-to-westboro-baptist-church-at-stanford-the-law-and-wbc/
 
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  • #447
Sheriff Dupnik shows his integrity, and has issued a statement where he dismisses the idea that loughner's motivation can be called political.

The following description is largely a reversal of what he previously thought:

"Though Giffords may have been the intended target, Dupnik said there's no evidence that the shootings were part of a political agenda. Instead, he said, Loughner is deeply troubled, and "When you try to rationalize irrational acts, you wind up with zero."

"While you can't prove what the motive was in this case, I think we know that people who have troubled personalities are being subjected to the anger and emotion that is being created in this country, and I think we need to at least look into our hearts and souls and think about it," Dupnik said.
"

Disturbed persons DO draw into their private worlds stuff from the outside world, but in manners that really cannot be predicted by those making it.
Thus, one cannot really blame politicians using a militant rhetoric for anything such disturbed persons might do.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/01/10/106546/sheriff-loughner-targeted-giffords.html
 
  • #448
nismaratwork said:
Given the age, it's the sad, but normal progress of an undiagnosed and untreated schizophrenic. His father has been described as, "being sometimes hostile", although neighbors don't seem to know why. He is described as giving, "the silent treatment", again, for no apparent reason.

If this isn't schizophrenia, I'll be genuinely shocked.@Arildno: You've described the internal world of a spree killer very well. In this case, as I keep saying I think there's more, but the portrait you pain is still very accurate with the addition that he would be UNABLE to realize, not just admit, that his thoughts were increasingly paranoid and disorganized.

What does a man feel as he loses his mind? Doubtless one of the first things at the outset is fear, and a need to pull those pieces back together. Sadly, the perceptual and processing issues would make that a jumble of his own internal world, and cut him off from the ability to test reality properly. Humans want control, and believe we have more control than we do... and that's when we're sane! It seems to be a common theme that OTHERS are INTRUDING... that the disorganization isn't a problem with the the ill person, but everyone else; truly the epitome of 'I am the only sane man', which you see echoed in his statements about intelligence and literacy.

If you become convinced that X entity is imposing thoughts, reading your thoughts or (another common phrase we hear) 'Projecting thoughts'... then when you believe someone is essentially waging what you and I would call magic psychic warfare, they react badly. Most break down, and end on the streets, with family, on drugs, or they get help. It's that group which remains untreated which presents the primary risk to themselves and others.@All: Giffords is now, apparently, able to breathe on her own (still intubated of course) and the sedation has been reduced.
This is philosophy with little to no foundation at all in science. It is what you believe are the FAPs and their triggers in a person who "looses its mind". It's all useless speculation. You re also not qualified to diagnose anyone. Let it to specialists.
 
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  • #449
DanP said:
This is philosophy with little to no foundation at all in science. It is what you believe are the FAPs and their triggers in a person who "looses its mind". It's all useless speculation. You re also not qualified to diagnose anyone. Let it to specialists.

Qualified or not, I'm not making a diagnosis, which would be unethical in the extreme. I've been clear that this is a bet I've made with myself, but if you'd like it to be a bet with you, I'd be thrilled. In the meantime:

http://www.apa.org/ethics/code/index.aspx

mugaliens said:
Lol, see the time? I don't sleep.

I do, however, respect your point of view. In the meantime, I'm watching Get Smart, and ROTFLMFAO. Anne's such a deadpanner! Cute, too.

Cute? Hot. One of the few things I've owned on bootleg, VHS, then DVD. Get Smart is, without a doubt, one of the best ways to pass time with a television if laughter is your goal. I can only hope kids appreciate that Inspector Gadget is a generation outreach from Get Smart to their age-group.

mugaliens said:
I'd say it takes one to know one. :)

If I dare go off on a tangent, I also enjoy writing, photography, music, and flying! On a more serious note, though, I'd also say I've had some mighty good friends who have helped me along the way.

No, I would never harm another human being unless it were absolutely necessary, and I sincerely hope it would never be necessary. Something some people don't understand, however, is that sadly, reluctantly, it is sometimes necessary to harm another human being. I don't like it, but it's a sad fact of life, something the vast majority of us who have served in the military, or on a police force, understand. However, I think most people who have not served in this way understand this, as well, as it's a fundamental tenet of our human existence. I feel Saving Private Ryan dealt with these issues quite well, and as gruesom a movie as it was, I would recommend it to any adult. My son visted with me recently, yet he's only ten, so he's far too young for it's content. Much, much later!

I think the driving question is whether any of us would be willing to harm another human being, if doing so were the "right" thing to do? I spent 20 years in the U.S. military, so I know what my answer is, yet I thank God I've never killed anyone.

I very sincerely hope I never have to. I will not, however, forfeit either my own life or the lives of friends and family. That is why I carry a firearm. My life, my son's life, and the lives of my parents, aunts, and uncles, are worth protecting. Some may fault me for caring enough to protect their lives. That's ok. I swore and fought to protect their Constitutional rights to believe that, the same as I swore and fought to protect the rights in which I believe.

Not having really good friends may be a contributing factor in this man not being forced to get help. It may not, but I hear you; a friend will save your life, but a good friend will save it when you don't realize there's a problem, or can't get a handle on it, whatever that is.

Beyond that, I don't believe that this is a tangent. You're the person who, at first blush, might scare people if they don't listen to EVERYTHING you're saying in the context of how you live. As one excellent signature here quotes, you and the Dalai Lama are on the same page where self-defense is concerned... I'd call that solid moral ground. I think that your basic attitude about your son watching 'SPR' also reflects a lack of hypocrisy.
 
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  • #450
The self-proclaimed "expertise" in this thread seems to have some reevaluation to do:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/12/national/main7238536.shtml?tag=stack"

Loughner was arrested in October 2008 on a vandalism charge near Tucson after admitting he scrawled the letters "C" and "X" on a road sign in a reference to what he said was Christianity. His address listed on the police report was an apartment near his home.

Christian-Communist-Nazi...? Really??
 
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