Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[mheslep]

A uplifting and unifying (I sincerely hope!) address to highlight our losses. Obama acquitted himself quite well, IMO. I hope people who have previously excoriated him can bring themselves to support him.

This is not about Obama personally, not for me, but about the country and this tragedy. Obama is a part of the country, not the other way around. Here he chose to forgo the http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/117321-obama-critics-talk-about-me-like-a-dog" or "punish our enemies" shtick he's done before, and to use the talent I admit he has for speeches to render something sublime; credit where credit is due. As for some other of his choices with which I feel are not just mildly but catastrophically wrong, and continue on that path, he'll get more of the same from me.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

credit where credit is due.

But it was very painful, huh.

 

[mheslep]

But it was very painful, huh.

Nope.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Nope.

If there were any more off-topic qualifiers in there you could start a new thread.

 

[arildno]

Well, fluff-production IS important, because the sense of belonging and being members of the same society is in part, an emotional phenomenon, rather than just a rational one.

Without such fluff, one's attachment to one's society will be some mere abstract idea amongst innumerable others neither oneself or others will bother much with upholding.

So, thumbs up for Obama's speech, and its contribution towards ending a pointless, acrimonious blame game.

 

[DanP]

Well, that's the point of such speeches, isn't it? To take advantage of a bad situation for personal gain? Worked for Bush too!

Sorry, fluff doesn't win my support.

Maybe so, but statistically it wins support from the masses.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, that's the point of such speeches, isn't it? To take advantage of a bad situation for personal gain? Worked for Bush too!

Sorry, fluff doesn't win my support.

Phew, thanks... I was worried that I only thought you were painfully cynical. By the way, how do you know that fluff doesn't win your support... have you allowed for a scientific examination of your voting and ideological history?

You certainly seem to be swayed by it, just not fluff you dislike or find less than useful... it seems. Of course, maybe you defy the odds, but of the people on this site I'd have called as being "above it all"... you're not it. I'm not either, don't get me wrong, but you and Ivan are the legendary pair chasing each other for eternity... I'd be crushed if that was shaken somehow.

 

[WhoWee]

Well that's part of it no doubt. But protesting and hurling vile epithets at the funerals of American troops and leading officials will get you noticed with just about any label I'd guess.

I can't imagine that happening at any funeral I've ever attended. It's hard to understand why the local residents (at minimum) don't stand in opposite protest - whether they knew the deceased/family or not? Perhaps this is a call to action of members of the "real" Baptist church to defend their name - start showing up in greater numbers to honor the fallen.

 

[nismaratwork]

I can't imagine that happening at any funeral I've ever attended. It's hard to understand why the local residents (at minimum) don't stand in opposite protest - whether they knew the deceased/family or not? Perhaps this is a call to action of members of the "real" Baptist church to defend their name - start showing up in greater numbers to honor the fallen.

As I posted earlier, they will: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/11/2011-01-11_tucson_residents_to_fight_back_against_westboro_baptist_church_with_angel_wings.html

 

[arildno]

Mother Jones magazine has an in-depth interview with a fairly longtime friend of Loughner:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message

Points of interest:

1. Around 2008-09, Loughner decided to stop smoking pot, and being fairly regular with his interviewed friend, Bryce expresses surprise that Loughner failed an army drug test.

2. Intriguingly, Bryce says that as Loughner stopped using drugs, his weirdness seemed to intensify, rather than becoming reduced.

3. Bryce confirms that on several occasions, Loughner derided Giffords as "fake", i.e, some sort of personal obsession was building up against her, in Loughner's increasingly sick mind.

4. At 2.00 AM Saturday morning, Jared phoned Bryce, who chose not to pick up his phone.
Jared left the following message:
"Hey man, it's Jared. Me and you had good times. Peace out. Later."

Now, his friend's thoughts are still whirling around: "WHAT IF I had picked up the phone that night?"

 

[nismaratwork]

Mother Jones magazine has an in-depth interview with a fairly longtime friend of Loughner:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message

Points of interest:

1. Around 2008-09, Loughner decided to stop smoking pot, and being fairly regular with his interviewed friend, Bryce expresses surprise that Loughner failed an army drug test.

2. Intriguingly, Bryce says that as Loughner stopped using drugs, his weirdness seemed to intensify, rather than becoming reduced.

3. Bryce confirms that on several occasions, Loughner derided Giffords as "fake", i.e, some sort of personal obsession was building up against her, in Loughner's increasingly sick mind.

4. At 2.00 AM Saturday morning, Jared phoned Bryce, who chose not to pick up his phone.
Jared left the following message:
"Hey man, it's Jared. Me and you had good times. Peace out. Later."

Now, his friend's thoughts are still whirling around: "WHAT IF I had picked up the phone that night?"

Oh man, I feel for Bryce, but he must have given up on Loughner long ago. Still, what-ifs with people who are irrational, and insane... it just brings heartache. I know it's unavoidable, but it's a terrible consequence of this young man's actions, sane or not.

edit:

"In any man who dies there dies with him
his first snow and kiss and fight...
Not people die but worlds die in them."
(Yevgeny Aleksandrovich Yevtushenko)

 

[arildno]

Bryce Tierney's testimony gives us also a clue to why we should be careful about initiating a finger-pointing blame game in the public discourse.
(And, in this case, it was uniformly the liberal MSM that who were the primary culprits, however else it might be in other cases).

What is the relevance of this to a guy like Tierney?

Well, if somebody relatively close to Loughner starts believing that peripheral persons in Loughner's life like radio hosts and Sarah Palin must share some blame for his action, how much more guilty must they themselves be, precisely because they were Significant Others for Loughner?
(That is, as much Significant Other that could exist within Loughner's self-obsessed mind)

That is, a public blame game will have as an actually predictable consequence that innocent people around Loughner begin to feel a degree of private anguish and sense of guilt they otherwise would not have felt.

They deserve to be spared from such externally imposed additional sources of humiliation. They will have a hard enough time as it is, tackling their own sense of shame for "not having done enough" (an unavoidable feeling in such situations, however unjustified this type of self-recrimination is)

 

[WhoWee]

As I posted earlier, they will: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/11/2011-01-11_tucson_residents_to_fight_back_against_westboro_baptist_church_with_angel_wings.html

I understand, but these people sound as though they'll be just another act in circus. I'm suggesting this is an opportunity for the mainstream Baptist church to separate themselves from the nut jobs and put the issue to rest. If every time these nuts show up using the church's name, the real church members show up to counter and discredit - it should discourage the nuts.

Another thing the real church could do is request (petition the IRS) the nuts lose their tax status - on the grounds they are a "Baptist" church in name only. Force the nuts to defend their legitimacy - this too would discredit and distract them.

 

[nismaratwork]

I understand, but these people sound as though they'll be just another act in circus. I'm suggesting this is an opportunity for the mainstream Baptist church to separate themselves from the nut jobs and put the issue to rest. If every time these nuts show up using the church's name, the real church members show up to counter and discredit - it should discourage the nuts.

Another thing the real church could do is request (petition the IRS) the nuts lose their tax status - on the grounds they are a "Baptist" church in name only. Force the nuts to defend their legitimacy - this too would discredit and distract them.

That would be nice... in the meantime the AZ legislature passed a law against protesting funerals a day or two ago (fast). If Brewer signs it, and a judge waits in an injunction, this could be made a non-issue. It's semi-ethical, but utterly legal to operate in that fashion, and the only spectacle would be a brief period when the "church" members are arrested.

 

[WhoWee]

As one who disagrees with him on most things, let me be the first to say here the President turned in a top drawer speech tonight, the kind of speech that caused his star to rise so fast in the first place. He did what a President should do, and perhaps only a President can do, he rose above it all, hopefully bringing the country with him.

The speech was correct. However, I didn't care for the campaign-feel (53 interruptions?) and a large room with a sound stage. I would have preferred a solemn moment at the scene of the crime - this seemed too detached.

Good speech, good words - too crowd-responsive.

 

[nismaratwork]

Bryce Tierney's testimony gives us also a clue to why we should be careful about initiating a finger-pointing blame game in the public discourse.
(And, in this case, it was uniformly the liberal MSM that who were the primary culprits, however else it might be in other cases).

What is the relevance of this to a guy like Tierney?

Well, if somebody relatively close to Loughner starts believing that peripheral persons in Loughner's life like radio hosts and Sarah Palin must share some blame for his action, how much more guilty must they themselves be, precisely because they were Significant Others for Loughner?
(That is, as much Significant Other that could exist within Loughner's self-obsessed mind)

That is, a public blame game will have as an actually predictable consequence that innocent people around Loughner begin to feel a degree of private anguish and sense of guilt they otherwise would not have felt.

They deserve to be spared from such externally imposed additional sources of humiliation. They will have a hard enough time as it is, tackling their own sense of shame for "not having done enough" (an unavoidable feeling in such situations, however unjustified this type of self-recrimination is)

Hopefully enough people will take to heart the various calls to end the search for a reason in the mind of someone lacking reason, that such suffering can be minimized. As you say, it's not going to be abolished. Hopefully the community will provide some measure of grief counseling and long-term care, even for those who witnessed this. We don't need more people walking around, traumatized, while we focus on everything BUT them.

 

[WhoWee]

That would be nice... in the meantime the AZ legislature passed a law against protesting funerals a day or two ago (fast). If Brewer signs it, and a judge waits in an injunction, this could be made a non-issue. It's semi-ethical, but utterly legal to operate in that fashion, and the only spectacle would be a brief period when the "church" members are arrested.

Those things are fine, but in my mind a waste of resources. If average people with common sense start to get more involved (and just say HELL NO) this kind of behavior can be lessened.

 

[nismaratwork]

The speech was correct. However, I didn't care for the campaign-feel (53 interruptions?) and a large room with a sound stage. I would have preferred a solemn moment at the scene of the crime - this seemed too detached.

Good speech, good words - too crowd-responsive.

It's so hard to tell if it was a crowd looking for catharsis, if this was political on the part of the University, or just the fact that these people are a little tired of crying and wondering what to do.

Laughing in death's face can be a good thing.

 

[nismaratwork]

Those things are fine, but in my mind a waste of resources. If average people with common sense start to get more involved (and just say HELL NO) this kind of behavior can be lessened.

I agree, but they're NOT! How do you get people to care when they're so burned-out by decades of this endless divide:

religion, abortion, gay people, insert color here, war, conservative nuts, liberal nuts, libertarian nuts... and finally a just plain NUT.

It's exhausting just to watch... it must be traumatic to be in a state that's right on the eye-wall of this hurricane.

 

[WhoWee]

I agree, but they're NOT! How do you get people to care when they're so burned-out by decades of this endless divide:

religion, abortion, gay people, insert color here, war, conservative nuts, liberal nuts, libertarian nuts... and finally a just plain NUT.

It's exhausting just to watch... it must be traumatic to be in a state that's right on the eye-wall of this hurricane.

IMO - the protest of a funeral is just plain - incorrect - regardless of the identity of the deceased.

 

[nismaratwork]

IMO - the protest of a funeral is just plain - incorrect - regardless of the identity of the deceased.

I agree... hell, the outcries at SADDAM'S EXECUTION were internationally condemned.

edit: It's about what we want to be as a society, and not the nuts.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEiitkI2WH0

 

[SW VandeCarr]

It's about what we want to be as a society, and not the nuts.

I agree. I'm particularly concerned by the continuing attempts to politicize the motives of an obviously irrational and disturbed individual. Suppose JL said we was a (self-identified) tea party person? Does that confirm the raging speculations about Fox News and other right of center outlets?

I don't know what information he's getting in his jail cell, but if he wanted to stir things up, he could claim "Sara Palin sent me coded message instructing me to do what I did." Such a statement from someone like JL should get no more attention than if he said Jesus Christ sent him a coded message. But unfortunately, that would almost certainly not be the case. How can we give this sick individual such potential media power? It doesn't matter what he thinks (except in a medical sense) or who or what he self-identifies with.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Wow, according to CNN medical expert Sanjay Gupta, who is a neurosurgeon, the Chief of Neurosurgery at Tucson stated that Giffords seemed to open her eyes in response to the activities around her, when Obama visited. Giffords' husband thinks she knows Obama was there, but she doesn't understand why.

When Gupta questioned him about the word "miracle" being tossed around, he smiled and said that her response has been miraculous. Her eyes are starting to track properly, she responds definitively to questions and even gave a thumb's up.

I kept thinking how strange it must be. One minute you're standing at a Safeway, and the next thing you know, you're in a hospital bed with Nancy Pelosi looking at you [Pelosi was there when she first opened her eyes. Obama had just left].

 

[Evo]

Wow, according to CNN medical expert Sanjay Gupta, who is a neurosurgeon, the Chief of Neurosurgery at Tucson stated that Giffords seemed to open her eyes in response to the activities around her, when Obama visited. Gifford's husband thinks she knows Obama was there, but she doesn't understand why.

When Gupta questioned him about the word "miracle" being tossed around, he smiled and said that her response has been miraculous. Her eyes are starting to track properly, she responds definitively to questions, and even gave a thumb's up.

I saw a documentary on a teenager that had one hemishpere of his brain completely blown off by a gun, and he recovered, his brain rewired itself. One side of his brain is now carrying out the functions of both sides and one side of the brain is no longer even there. You can probably find it by googling it.

So this isn't that surprising. She was lucky. I've seen a lot of shows on Discovery Health on this. A week ago they had a guy that had a golf club that went completely through both sides of the guy's brain and he was still talking. A golf club! Talk about trauma. I watched as they cut off the handle and club to leave the rod while they tried to figure out how to remove it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I saw a documentary on a teenager that had one hemishpere of his brain completely blown off by a gun, and he recovered, his brain rewired itself. One side of his brain is now carrying out the functions of both sides and one side of the brain is no longer even there. You can probably find it by googling it.

So this isn't that surprising. She was lucky. I've seen a lot of shows on Discovery Health on this. A week ago they had a guy that had a golf club that went completely through both sides of the guy's brain and he was still talking. A golf club! Talk about trauma. I watched as they cut off the handle and club to leave the rod while they tried to figure out how to remove it.

It is surprising according to the experts treating her. For starters, there is only a 5% chance of survival when shot in the head; nevermind cognitive functions after just a few days.

As Gupta pointed out, people like this don't normally use the word "miracle". Without invoking any religious meaning here, at the least she seems to be beating some very long odds.

 

[Evo]

It is surprising according to the experts treating her. For starters, there is only a 5% chance of survival when shot in the head; nevermind cognitive functions after just a few days.

As Gupta pointed out, people like this don't normally use the word "miracle". Without invoking any religious meaning here, at the least she seems to be beating some very long odds.

I doubt he meant a "miracle" as in supernatural.

 

[WhoWee]

I kept thinking how strange it must be. One minute you're standing at a Safeway, and the next thing you know, you're in a hospital bed with Nancy Pelosi looking at you [Pelosi was there when she first opened her eyes. Obama had just left].

Nightmare.

 

[nismaratwork]

I agree. I'm particularly concerned by the continuing attempts to politicize the motives of an obviously irrational and disturbed individual. Suppose JL said we was a (self-identified) tea party person? Does that confirm the raging speculations about Fox News and other right of center outlets?

Yeah... I'll freely admit that Palin is someone who can be annoying, and others who are more... intelligent... get under my skin. I can't just use this as an excuse to slam them for the hell of it though. If Americans really WANT a new product, they may get it, even from Fox News. You can represent an ideology without using hysteria, and MSNBC... they're just so damned irresponsible!

I don't know what information he's getting in his jail cell

Obviously I have no special knowledge, but if the FBI follows their procedure then the only contact he has with the outside world is his lawyer.

but if he wanted to stir things up, he could claim "Sara Palin sent me coded message instructing me to do what I did." Such a statement from someone like JL should get no more attention than if he said Jesus Christ sent him a coded message. But unfortunately, that would almost certainly not be the case. How can we give this sick individual such potential media power? It doesn't matter what he thinks (except in a medical sense) or who or what he self-identifies with.

I doubt that he thinks very much of Sarah Palin, but who knows. I would guess that someone so obsessed with words wouldn't be partial to her, and he doesn't seem to have an ideology... just madness. I can only hope that people remember Hinckley and Berkowitz at times like this...

 

[Proton Soup]

I understand, but these people sound as though they'll be just another act in circus. I'm suggesting this is an opportunity for the mainstream Baptist church to separate themselves from the nut jobs and put the issue to rest. If every time these nuts show up using the church's name, the real church members show up to counter and discredit - it should discourage the nuts.

Another thing the real church could do is request (petition the IRS) the nuts lose their tax status - on the grounds they are a "Baptist" church in name only. Force the nuts to defend their legitimacy - this too would discredit and distract them.

doesn't matter if they're "baptist" or not. they could be the Church of Mephistopheles and retain their tax status.