Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[nismaratwork]

ja, it's in the link i just posted. crazy with a capital c in an odd font.

Yeah, it's already been made clear that this man is not sane... I think the picture drives it home. Arildno (and all): http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html?hpt=T1

I'm no fan of angels, but these I'll root for. Silently protecting... that sounds about right.Ivan: I want to agree with you, and I want to dig into the politics, but unless this man has fooled virtually everyone for many years, he's been progressively more aggressive, and delusional. People often think, "of course, crazy means violent..."... no. Crazy (I use this term loosely) is crazy, but undiagnosed/untreated crazy... THAT often does end in violence. I should add, that violence is usually random and hysterical, or self-inflicted... if as I suspect Loughner is Schizophrenic or DD:NOS.

In the words of his teacher, "[Loughner] scared the hell out of me." His friends seemed unsurprised at these events, but his parents by all accounts are shocked and devastated *nod to arildno*. A neighbor spoke to CNN and described the father as unable to put together 3 words without breaking down into tears, and the mother is even worse. To me, that seems to indicate either a long struggle, or in this case perhaps, not fully realizing just how ill their child was... after all, he'd only moved home recently.

If anyone can explain to me why the discussion is political instead of focusing on how someone with YEARS of intervention by police, even after his expulsion from college under the order that he receive a psych evaluation before attempting to return... well, I'd be impressed. In subsequent run-ins with the police, at no point does it seem that anyone questioned his sanity; clearly the guy was nuts. It also seems clear that nobody sought to have him held for 72 hours, or so much as an evaluation with a court-appointed psychologist.

People always talk about, "what failed?" in these situations... we don't know exactly how, but we know what failed was: his brain and mind. If there were systemic failures, his parents aren't it... he's 22... the college protected their campus and told him to get help! The police probably didn't have time to get a bead on just what they were dealing with, AND convince brass or a judge.

This is absolutely the kind of person who, if he couldn't get a gun, would use ANYTHING. A bomb, a knife... it doesn't matter anymore. If there's a gun-control issue here, it would just be a renewal of the assault-weapons ban, which had it been renewed could have made one huge difference:

33 round magazines are VERBOTEN under that law, and what was the point of failure for this mass attack?... the magazine, and the need to reload. I'd love to hear why joe-citizen could possibly need that.

I'd also love to know why such a crazy bastard, with a police record, a drug record with the military, and two failed school experiences including 'get help' on that last... BOUGHT A GUN and a multiple extended magazines. He was refused ammo at one store, but not the gun. I don't think that tragedy would be averted that way... it's too easy to find a gun, but could this lunatic have found one through illegal channels? If he did, it have been another point of weakness where he could have been arrested.

My point isn't that gun control is the needed debate, but we should still ask ourselves how on Earth 'Shaved-Head McManson' was able to walk up to a counter, and buy a glock.

 

[mheslep]

While perhaps unjustified, the fingers are all pointing at the same person

With your help.

[in addition to a few others].

Like this guy maybe
‘We’re going to punish our enemies, and we’re going to reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us’

 

[CAC1001]

Among the guy's favorite books is The Communist Manifesto and he was a registered Independent. What is ironic is that after the Fort Hood shooting, the immediate reaction of the media was to say that we cannot let this one lunatic be seen as a representative of all Muslims (which I agreed with wholeheartedly).

But with this guy, the immediate reaction was to connect him with the Right (Sarah Palin, Fox News, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Tea Party, etc...), Heaven-forbid if he'd been a Tea Party attendant, it would be "no question" then that the whole movement is nuts.

Of course the reality is he was just a pure nut with no political affiliation who seems to think that the government is brainwashing us through grammar.

 

[CAC1001]

I knew I never liked this guy:

 

[WhoWee]

I just saw a report from the scene of the shooting. The reporter indicated there are several cameras throughout the plaza.

 

[WhoWee]

The report from the shooting site also showed the path of the shooter. It started at a table in front of the Safeway (where Rep Giffords was meeting people) and continued along the walk way to drug store Walgreens maybe?). The distance appeared to be about 40 to 50 yards. Previously, I thought he did all of the shooting in a single location, but apparently he just shot everyone that he passed on his way. The reporter also indicated one of the people that tackled him was walking out of the drug store.

 

[turbo]

You mean David Brooks, or Mark Shields?

How can you post name calling for years in this forum and make that statement? Edit: I see MugA got there first.

It's David Brooks. Sorry

 

[nismaratwork]

I believe that, if we want to break things down, Jon Stewart (and/or writers) had the best thing I've heard on the subject.

Here is a portion after he decries the entire concept that there's some fault or political hay to be made, except by the truly vile.

Monday, January 10, 2011

“It would be really nice if the ramblings of crazy people didn’t in any way resemble how we actually talk to each other on TV. Let’s at least make troubled individuals easier to spot.

And, you know, again, to see good people like this hurt, it is so grievous, and it causes me such sadness. But again, I refuse to give into that feeling of despair. There is light in this situation. I urge everyone: read up about those who were hurt and / or killed in this shooting. You will be comforted by how much anonymous goodness there really is in this world. You read about these people, and you realize that people that you don’t even know, that you never even met, are leading lives of real dignity and goodness. And you hear about crazy, but it’s rarer than you think. And I think you’ll find yourself even more impressed with Congresswoman Giffords, and amazed at how much living some of the deceased packed into lives that were cut way too short.

If there is any solace in this, I think it’s that for all the hyperbole and the vitriol that’s become a part of the political process, when the reality of that rhetoric, when actions match the disturbing nature of words, we haven’t lost our capacity to be horrified.

…Someone or something will shatter our world again. And wouldn’t it be a shame if we didn’t take this opportunity, and the loss of these incredible people, and the pain that their loved ones are going through right now: wouldn’t it be a shame if we didn’t take that moment to make sure that the world that we are creating now, that will ultimately be shattered again by a moment of lunacy — wouldn’t it be a shame if that world wasn’t better than the one we previously lost?”
JON STEWART, addressing the shootings in Tucson, on The Daily Show

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-10-2011/arizona-shootings-reaction

If only we could all be as mature as a bunch of comedians... if only our comedians weren't more useful for the national dialogue than 6 separate news networks we all know are pathetic.

 

[edward]

I was more than a little surprised to see the sheriff on so many channels - saying the same thing over and over. On the other hand, the FBI is apparently doing his job - he might need something to make him look busy?

He was on so many channels because they were all here in Tucson asking for interviews. Other than that he only had two press conferences in which his statements are being played over and over.

He is just telling it like it is as he sees it and feels it from the heart. Bear in mind he was a personal friend of Judge Roll and had known Giffords since she was a little girl riding horseback beside of him in local parades.

I have personally seen the growing tensions as the right wing nuts arm themselves to the hilt and talk of a second revolution. The extreme right wing government of Arizona has left us with virtually no gun laws or restrictions. Anyone can carry concealed without a background check or safety training.

 

[nismaratwork]

Edward... He passed the "instant federal background firearms" check, not just the AZ regs.

 

[turbo]

And my point was that the killer planned his attack. He was not just an insane man who inexplicably snapped. He planned he and executed his plan.

It's disingenuous to ignore Palin's rifle-scope graphics and pretend "Don't retreat. Reload." is just innocent fun. Giffords warned (with ample justification) that it was wrong to put rifle-sights on targeted Democrats (including her).

BTW, Roger Ailes has instructed the FOX staff to tone down the nastiness and bombast. Given the fact that bombast gets ratings, we'll see how long that lasts.

 

[WhoWee]

He was on so many channels because they were all here in Tucson asking for interviews. Other than that he only had two press conferences in which his statements are being played over and over.

He is just telling it like it is as he sees it and feels it from the heart. Bear in mind he was a personal friend of Judge Roll and had known Giffords since she was a little girl riding horseback beside of him in local parades.

I have personally seen the growing tensions as the right wing nuts arm themselves to the hilt and talk of a second revolution. The extreme right wing government of Arizona has left us with virtually no gun laws or restrictions. Anyone can carry concealed without a background check or safety training.

In your opinion, is the problem of Mexican drug gangs (and their violence) a problem in your community - is it the sheriff's top priority? Also, please see my post above regarding the report from the scene - to clarify anything I (or the reporter) might have misinterpretted.

 

[turbo]

BTW, Giffords' doctor has said her survival is 100% assured, whatever that means. I hope her recovery is sufficient to allow her to enjoy the rest of her life.

 

[WhoWee]

And my point was that the killer planned his attack. He was not just an insane man who inexplicably snapped. He planned he and executed his plan.

It's disingenuous to ignore Palin's rifle-scope graphics and pretend "Don't retreat. Reload." is just innocent fun. Giffords warned (with ample justification) that it was wrong to put rifle-sights on targeted Democrats (including her).

BTW, Roger Ailes has instructed the FOX staff to tone down the nastiness and bombast. Given the fact that bombast gets ratings, we'll see how long that lasts.

Turbo, please support your post. Where is the evidence of the direct connection?

Read Evo's earlier post - this guy was a 9/11 conspiracy nut. If you need to blame someone - pick someone with a direct link. Start with the producer of the 9/11 film.

You called for everyone to stop the hate posts - but you continue to lead the way in the behavior?

 

[nismaratwork]

And my point was that the killer planned his attack. He was not just an insane man who inexplicably snapped. He planned he and executed his plan.

It's disingenuous to ignore Palin's rifle-scope graphics and pretend "Don't retreat. Reload." is just innocent fun. Giffords warned (with ample justification) that it was wrong to put rifle-sights on targeted Democrats (including her).

BTW, Roger Ailes has instructed the FOX staff to tone down the nastiness and bombast. Given the fact that bombast gets ratings, we'll see how long that lasts.

Premeditation rules out all but the most inspired insanity plea in COURT... it doesn't mean that he isn't insane. There is a huge range from someone who is a bit anxious, to someone who's completely divorced from reality (acute psychosis).

Remember legal insantity in the US essentially means that you can't have been aware that you were planning or committing a crime. Of all the people in the world who are mentally ill, even profoundly so, that is a VERY small minority.

Other information includes friends, teachers and others describing his oddities in more detail. For example, in a group hearing a sad story, he'd laugh. (example of one of his friends) In class he asked questions utterly unrelated to the class and spent time, "Mumbling to himself." according to a classmate (older than I am!) on CNN.

THIS. GUY. IS. INSANE. Whatever the cause, be it drugs or schizophrenia, or just plain 'we don't know, but it's CRAZY"... he is insane. It's clear that Giffords became a target of his ire, but not for reasons that any rational person would accept.

Two days ago, what you mentioned would be something I'd consider... now, I doubt it mattered at all. Only a few things could have changed this: Good security, Don't sell guns to lunatics, and as Jon Stewart said, maybe we need the overall background noise to die down so that we can isolate those are crazy as is... not for marketing purposes.

 

[nismaratwork]

BTW, Giffords' doctor has said her survival is 100% assured, whatever that means. I hope her recovery is sufficient to allow her to enjoy the rest of her life.

Survival, yes, assuming no sudden turn or infection, but RECOVERY?... nobody could possibly know yet, and are unlikely to know for weeks or moths. As for the full extent of any recovery, anyone who has experience with this kind of injury will tell you: It takes the rest of your life, and it's utterly unpredictable.

 

[WhoWee]

Survival, yes, assuming no sudden turn or infection, but RECOVERY?... nobody could possibly know yet, and are unlikely to know for weeks or moths. As for the full extent of any recovery, anyone who has experience with this kind of injury will tell you: It takes the rest of your life, and it's utterly unpredictable.

I just saw an analysis of her injury. The doctor indicated the bullet passed through first an area that controls speech, then an area that controls movement, and last an another area that effects speech.

 

[nismaratwork]

I just saw an analysis of her injury. The doctor indicated the bullet passed through first an area that controls speech, then an area that controls movement, and last an another area that effects speech.

I know this is going to sound odd to many here, but PHEW. I can't think of a better wound-track from a shot like the one she took. As I said earlier, she's incredibly lucky that she received amazing and heroic care at the scene and later, but also just LUCKY. I would add that, as I said earlier, while lucky to be alive, she's not as lucky as the other congresswomen who haven't been shot in the head.

Assuming (and I do based on what you and the doctor said) that the wound track is just that, her brain is likely to compensate given her relative youth. Even knowing the wound track... even if I were looking at the CATscan AND her opened brain... I wouldn't hazard a guess as to recovery time.

You really start to know how people are going to proceed only once they begin to... well... proceed. Thank you for the detailed information by the way.

 

[turbo]

Details here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/11/gabrielle-giffords-shot_n_806920.html

 

[nismaratwork]

I just watched the news conference from some of the families... I may be done with this thread for a while, so if I'm in and out, it's not personal. At this point I think waiting, and reflecting on life in general feels about right to me.

Oh, and I have a lot of work.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

neighbors report on how loughner's parents are doing
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2011/01/11/sot.loughner.neighbor.kgun?hpt=T2

 

[turbo]

neighbors report on how loughner's parents are doing
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2011/01/11/sot.loughner.neighbor.kgun?hpt=T2

So sad to think of all the reporters camped out in front of their house, especially since the neighbor describes them as reclusive. I hope somebody can help them with counseling (if they'll accept the help), because it sounds like they need it badly.

 

[arildno]

It's disingenuous to ignore Palin's rifle-scope graphics and pretend "Don't retreat. Reload." is just innocent fun. Giffords warned (with ample justification) that it was wrong to put rifle-sights on targeted Democrats (including her).

Sigh.
I have to tell you in the truly brutal way:
Just because Mrs. Giffords got a bullet through her head doesn't make her a..prophetess.

Most likely, she was simply wrong in her assertion.

That, of course, should note remove an iota of sympathy she deserves from us.

 

[Evo]

I saw this interview yesterday.

Prof. Called 911 on Loughner after Class "Rant"
Says She Called Police in September after Tucson Shooting Suspect Raved about Constitution, Freedom of Speech

She explained, "I was collecting papers that were due at the beginning of class. A different student had realized he forgot his paper and asked if he could turn it in late, and I said he could, but it would be half-credit. Then Jared realized that he didn't have his assignment. He raised his hand, and asked if he could turn it in late. And I said, yes, but for half-credit. At that point, he was upset, he said, 'No, I want full credit.' And I said, 'No, it's half-credit, it's part of the policy, it's spelled out in the syllabus.'

"Students understand this," Scheidemantel said. "But he didn't seem to, and he pointed at the flag, and the Constitution up at the front of the room and said that I was taking away his freedom of speech, I was taking away his individual rights, that it was unconstitutional. He was saying that, you know, he's paying me, and therefore I'm taking away his freedom of speech if I don't give him full credit.

continued...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/10/earlyshow/main7230271.shtml

 

[WhoWee]

I saw this interview yesterday.

continued...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/10/earlyshow/main7230271.shtml

I'm not clear on the timeline - this apparently happened before he ever purchased a gun?

I caught the end of an interview earlier (again only heard part) that inferred the sheriff's office (apparently they monitor gun purchases locally?) might have dropped the ball. I'll try to find something to clarify - again, I only heard part of the piece - label this IMO for now.

 

[Evo]

I'm not clear on the timeline - this apparently happened before he ever purchased a gun?

In September, this is when he was barred from the college.

 

[nismaratwork]

Yeah... there's a guy who should pass the IFBC...

edit: I should point out that while this is certainly a slap to the federal check, if he HAD failed in AZ he could have simply snagged one, LEGALLY, at a gun show.

 

[turbo]

Yeah... there's a guy who should pass the IFBC...

edit: I should point out that while this is certainly a slap to the federal check, if he HAD failed in AZ he could have simply snagged one, LEGALLY, at a gun show.

In AZ, you can request a mental evaluation for a person who acts irrationally. Too bad his prof didn't do so.

Mental health experts say that, unlike many other states - where little can be done to force an unstable person into treatment until he or she becomes violent and poses a danger to themself or others - Arizona is different.
Any person in Arizona can petition the court for a psychiatric evaluation solely because a person appears to be mentally ill and doesn't know it.
"When people appear mentally ill or show some instability, how do you get them to [mental health] resources if the system doesn't know those people are out there?" Cash said. "Our crisis line is manned 24/7. Anyone concerned about his behavior could have called at any time."
Cash added that he had no information on whether Loughner sought out private treatment covered by private insurance. "If he was interfacing with other mental health officials, I don't know about that," Cash said.

 

[nismaratwork]

In AZ, you can request a mental evaluation for a person who acts irrationally. Too bad his prof didn't do so.

True, or his friends, or the people who complained to the professor, or his parents, or the other people he scared, or arguably even aides to Ms. Giffords after his very odd exchange with her back in 2007.

Lets be blunt: it's amazing that he was reported as much as he was, given that people seem so hesitant to take such measures.

 

[Evo]

In AZ, you can request a mental evaluation for a person who acts irrationally. Too bad his prof didn't do so.

Actually, his rant kind of sounds like some of the posts I've seen here before. When I first heard of his ramblings, world currency, government control, etc... I was wondering if he was a former member. I know I've seen the "teachers are paid with our taxes, they're part of the government scheme to brainwash and control us", yada yada. I guess it's just common conspiracy nuttiness. When do you make the leap from assuming it's just another dumb kid to he's a danger to society?