News Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[Evo]

I'm not arguing that you could foresee him shooting 20 people, although between what his friend Zane said, it's not impossible either. Or... to quote one of the teachers who had him expelled, one of those, "I was shocked, but I wasn't surprised." Really... I kid you not.

Anyway, you don't need to foresee mass murder, you just need to know that undiagnosed and untreated people with persecutorial delusions are one of the ONLY group of those people usually called "crazy" who really ARE a danger to others and themselves (edit: in the manner depicted in media, i.e. violent outbursts, etc... not that plain-old folk don't kill themselves)

I agree with you, but having read about how our system works, I think it's unlikely that a single call would have accomplished anything, can't risk imposing on someone's rights, can't risk a lawsuit. The law is pretty clear about taking someone in for evaluation against their will. It's just not going to happen. He didn't meet the criteria to be forcibly taken for evaluation.

I do know someone that was forcibly taken by police and held against his will for 72 hours, because a woman he pissed off online called the police and said he was about to commit suicide. They had been corresponding for a couple of months so she knew where he lived. He happened to have an antique shotgun from the civil war left to him by his grandfather sitting in his closet, he'd never fired the thing, but the police used that as just cause to assume he might shoot himself. It was the craziest thing. BTW, she knew about the gun and told police. The thing is, he wasn't contemplating suicide, she was just trying to get at him.

 

[edward]

No one would consider that as a "hotline" to report someone for irrational behavior, nor do they advertise a "hotline" for such purposes. It's a non-profit that receives government funds for mental health, I doubt most people would have even heard of them, much less think of calling them.

Arizona has one of the most expansive mental health laws in the country, allowing any person, concerned about the mental state of another to petition local authorities to have the person evaluated if they are a danger to themselves or others, if they are unable to care for themselves, or if they appear to be mentally ill but may not know it.

If only it worked that way; as far as I know the mental health evaluation must be ordered by a judge.

I called about a neighbor who continually disturbed the peace. On The first visit by a Sheriff's deputy the guy didn't answer his door. I mentioned that the neighbor appeared to be unstable.

Scecond time out he was given a verbal warning over the fence. I told the deputy at that that the man would follow me in his truck when I walked. The SO did nothing. I started walking in the desert.

Third time out he was cited for disturbing the peace, but I was left to deal with a very unstable person.

The man's wife was very good at talking her husband out of trouble.

The fouth time the man had contact with the Sheriff's Office was shortly after he murdered his wife.

EDIT: I guess I should mention that I am in Pima County AZ

 

[nismaratwork]

I agree with you, but having read about how our system works, I think it's unlikely that a single call would have accomplished anything, can't risk imposing on someone's rights, can't risk a lawsuit. The law is pretty clear about taking someone in for evaluation against their will. It's just not going to happen. He didn't meet the criteria to be forcibly taken for evaluation.

it would have done nothing, probably, because unless the guy essentially has a gun pointed, or a blade at his wrist there's so little to be done. Even then you'd be shocked what people do once you bring them back to earth; usually the first thing is, "goodbye!".

HOWEVER... that doesn't change a fundamental and well recognized principle in medicine and psychology/psychiatry: you still do what is ethical, you still make the call. You are just one person (the doctor) and you can't control what happens from there, but you can and should make that call.

In some cases, as I mentioned, the state or state licensing boards don't make that an option.

Who knows; a lot of things went wrong to get to the point where 20 people had contact with hot lead, and for the same reasons that we can't blame even potentially negligent parents of an adult, we can't KNOW that call won't make a difference. If everyone in his life took that position, there would have been a lot of calls.

 

[nismaratwork]

If only it worked that way; as far as I know the mental health evaluation must be ordered by a judge.

I called about a neighbor who continually disturbed the peace. On The first visit by a Sheriff's deputy the guy didn't answer his door. I mentioned that the neighbor appeared to be unstable.

Scecond time out he was given a verbal warning over the fence. I told the deputy at that that the man would follow me in his truck when I walked. The SO did nothing. I started walking in the desert.

Third time out he was cited for disturbing the peace, but I was left to deal with a very unstable person.

The man's wife was very good at talking her husband out of trouble.

The fouth time the man had contact with the Sheriff's Office was shortly after he murdered his wife.

I'm sorry to hear that... I still don't fully understand why people believe that ignoring mental illness will fix the problem. It's not a stigma, but it's also not a "gimme"... potential life under a doctor's care is not exactly joy by most standards. We have such a desperately punitive attitude about crime that we just toss the people who have no business there with them.

Our knowledge of mental illness has evolved from virtually nothing, to fMRI, PETscan, and MEG!... yet the concept that legally insane = too insane to be aware that you're committing a crime... is crazy. The standard for enforced hospitalization over an extended period?... you cannot be capable of caring for yourself. MOST mentally ill people aren't catatonic... *sigh*

 

[Evo]

I was called recently to serve as a juror on a case that included abduction, torture, rape, and a triple murder - including a pregnant woman. The jury selection process included a cattle call of sorts that took most of the day. I sat in a crowded courtroom, just behind the defendant for several hours. I watched him closely and could hear his discussions with attorneys regarding the proceedings. He looked at me - looking at him - several times whenever he turned around.

Fortunately, I know one of the prosecutors and requested to be released. In order to process my request, they had me enter a small conference room where the judge, prosecutors, defense attorneys, and the defendant were all present. I sat down and explained my reason for the request - everyone agreed I should be released.

As I prepared to leave, the defendant said (something to the effect of) 'hey man thanks - I thought you'd want to give me the needle' I smiled and said if I didn't know the prosecutor I probably would have - then we both laughed and he gave me a nod of approval.

He's on death row now - but you really couldn't tell from looking at him, watching his behavior, or talking directly to him that he is a savage animal.

Think of all of the serial killers, their neighbors and co-workers are always shocked, saying they were the nicest person.

 

[nismaratwork]

Think of all of the serial killers, their neighbors and co-workers are always shocked, saying they were the nicest person.

I'm appreciating the irony of listening to Dr. Alan Lipman pointing out that he's a textbook Schizophrenic, and pointing to his writing, and that writing in general points to a psychotic illness.

Anyway, the bit about serial killers is largely anecdotal; one real effect is called, "Superficial Charm" which is part of the pathology of some serial killers in particular (Bundy) and sociopaths in general. Often people describe feeling initially, "Creeped out, bugged out weirded out, he had a funny look on his face, etc...". Over time the ability of the sociopath to be superficially charming and manipulative, and the human tendency that, "well, I shouldn't base that on a gut feeling," or, "It must have been me," kick in.

I'd add that nobody, including his close friend Zane who described how Loughner cut him off socially after slowly becoming paranoid that Zane was stalking him, then stalking with the intent to kill him... sound like they thought Loughner was just some quiet stony dude. Far from it, and you don't have to take my word for it, chat with some of your trusted longtime members who are psychologists or psychiatrists. His writing literally could be from a textbook entitled: "Ways to identify a psychotic disorder!"

It would be a damned shame if the public learned nothing more as a result of this. No, we can't stop them all, but even one is a win, don't you think?

 

[Pattonias]

We can't stop all the terrible things that happen in the world from happening without controlling everyone, the good and the bad. We need to hold this individual accountable for his own actions and move on. At least this didn't end in a murder suicide.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well good news: http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/15/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

One week after being shot through the head, U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is off the ventilator and breathing on her own through a tracheotomy tube, the University Medical Center of Tucson, Arizona, said Saturday

and bad]weird news:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/15/arizona.shooting.images/index.html?iref=NS1

...Arizona shooting suspect Jared Loughner photographed himself posing with a 9mm handgun while wearing a red G-string, a law enforcement source said Saturday.

It's not clear when the photo was taken, but it was among those on a roll of 35 mm film that Loughner dropped off at a Walgreen's store in the hours before the shooting rampage that took six lives and left 13 others wounded, including U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.

The photo, which has not been made public, shows Loughner posing with the handgun covering his groin, according to the source.

A Walgreen's employee who saw the photos contacted police. The FBI is analyzing the photos, according to police...

OOOOOK.

 

[nismaratwork]

We can't stop all the terrible things that happen in the world from happening without controlling everyone, the good and the bad. We need to hold this individual accountable for his own actions and move on. At least this didn't end in a murder suicide.

He killed a Federal Judge... in AZ... he's going to die anyway.

I'd add... we don't need to control people, just the tiny minority who are PSYCHOTIC and suffering from persecutorial delusions... NOT MANY unless you count drug-induced psychosis, and I'm not.

Hell, by their very nature, people suffering from psychotic disorders CANNOT hide their illness; the issue is educating the public. Hell, if people on PF can't distinguish between a moon landing nut, and someone who thinks they're being followed by black helicopters, talks to satan through a dog, or eats people. Hell, remember Dahmer?... remember the cops returning the bleeding naked boy to him?

This is something the US needs to face eventually, because pushing it away can do no good.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Yeah, I would, and anyone with a hint of psychological training would, and the school DID.

(Sorry for bad timing after good news, here comes scary news)

I think Evo has a very good point, now when we know how this horrible story ended – it’s disgusting and scary. But, if this movie didn’t have anything to do with a real tragedy, it would just be dumb, silly...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFT_l8rKJj8

I found this video with JLL playing saxophone, and he looks just like any other guy. Then they show other really weird stuff he posted on YouTube...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubBQH6lxqiQ

I’ve found the video...

*** WARNING: Turn your volume DOWN if you have kids or anything 'sensitive' near! ***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L1lsLU-kUw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L1lsLU-kUw"

=|
If there's no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown.
There's no flag in the constitution.
Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown.
Burn every new and old flag that you see.
Burn your flag!
I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed.
Watch this protest in reverse!
Ask the local police; "What's your illegal activity on duty?".
If you protest the government then there's a new government from protesting.
There's not a new government from protesting.
Thus, you aren't protesting the government.
There's something important in this video: There's no communication to anyone in this location.
You shouldn't be afraid of the stars.
There's a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green. The rarest bird on earth, there's no feathers, but small grey scales all over the body. It's with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there's only one, the gender is not female or male. The wings of this bird are beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die for. If you can see this bird then you will understand. You think this bird is able to chat about a government?
I want you to imagine a comet or meteoroid coming through the atmosphere.
On the other hand, welcome yourself to the desert: Maybe your ability to protest is from the brainwash of the current government structure.

I’m normally not affected by horror movies, it just doesn’t interest me... but this makes me almost..

nismar, I think you have to reevaluate your "Schizophrenic diagnosis", this must be a 'multiple' of the all the worst things you can possibly imagine...

 

[nismaratwork]

I understand your reaction, but... it's not just that people believe crazy things, we're talking about writing and speech that is emblamatic of a psychotic disorder, and given his age, and what we've heard of him so far, Schizophrenia is statistically the most likely.

here is one example from your post:
"If you protest the government then there's a new government from protesting.
There's not a new government from protesting.
Thus, you aren't protesting the government."

It may not sound like it, but that's the craziest thing in that entire rant.

edit: I keep making this case, but a little research, and it doesn't take long to become familiar with this.
Here is a good place to start, at the basics.

http://psychology.jrank.org/pages/516/Psychosis.html

edit2: I'm not sure how to describe this without getting into the anatomy of psychosis, which is not what this thread is about, but this is VERY well done: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-symptoms-of-psychosis.htm

What, exactly, are these symptoms of psychosis, which we can now correctly refer to as psychotic symptoms? Someone who is psychotic may be experiencing hallucinations, sensory experiences that only exist in the mind. The person may be under very specific delusions, false beliefs brought on by mental or physical illnesses. The speech patterns and behavior of someone suffering from a psychotic disorder can be disorganized. Disorganized speech and behavior can be signs of distorted thought processes. The person may even be exhibiting catatonia, which is a stupor that can also manifest with extreme muscle rigidity or flexibility.

The bolding is mine, and all I can say is that with experience you come to recognize the very characteristic TYPE of disorganized thought that is typical of someone with a psychotic disorder; they are after all, fundamentally the human's Processing and I/O breakdowns; they have characteristic BSODs if you get the reference.

 

[edward]

Well good news: http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/15/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1


and bad]weird news:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/15/arizona.shooting.images/index.html?iref=NS1



OOOOOK.

And once again another near miss. The Walgreen's photo clerk could have called law enforcement before Loughner picked up the pictures. A SO Deputy could have been waiting for him.

According to local news media the pictures met the criteria for reporting.

We have so much crazyness going on that it appears people have become desensitized to it.

 

[nismaratwork]

<snip>nismar, I think you have to reevaluate your "Schizophrenic diagnosis", this must be a 'multiple' of the all the worst things you can possibly imagine...

Thank you for putting that in quotes, but I'm emphasizing again that it's not a diagnosis, it's a best guess.

Edward: Yep... I think that's what Jon Stewart was saying about political rhetoric, but it applies in general. The fact is that not all mental illness is the same, and someone who is psychotic is by DEFINITION both in danger, and a potential danger; they're not in touch with reality. It's sad when that kind crazy slips under the radar as more than just parting ways as a school, or friend.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Thank you for putting that in quotes, but I'm emphasizing again that it's not a diagnosis, it's a best guess.

Yes, it’s a guess and frankly it cannot be that "important". The key thing is that this guy is psychotic – he can’t tell the difference between reality and his own imaginary crazy world. That’s the symptom.

The diagnosis could be schizophrenia or paranoia or bipolar disorder or major depressive disorder or severe psychosocial stress or brain tumors or drug abuse, or a mix of several of these + let’s say ADHD, etc, etc.

We just don’t know. I’m not a psychiatrist and I guess you aren’t either...

The kid is TOTALLY NUTS, and we don’t know why.

Besides, all here on PF can be psychotic any time they like, "all" you have to do is to stay awake for 3-4 days and you will see things that don’t exist and hear stuff that is not there, but I strongly doubt that anyone will get near the madness of JLL...

 

[WhoWee]

It would be a damned shame if the public learned nothing more as a result of this. No, we can't stop them all, but even one is a win, don't you think?

The public learning experience aside, I hope steps are taken in the law enforcement and mental health communities to work together in a more efficient way.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

We have so much crazyness going on that it appears people have become desensitized to it.

I don’t know anything about the law in AZ, but in respect of the tolerant gun laws, shouldn’t there a law saying that; if you know anyone that behaves abnormal AND has a gun – you must call the police??

 

[Evo]

I don’t know anything about the law in AZ, but in respect of the tolerant gun laws, shouldn’t there a law saying that; if you know anyone that behaves abnormal AND has a gun – you must call the police??

I wanted to say I also loved your last post.

Yes, there should be a law that requires this. But we have a crazy country. I know people here will go nuts about guns. Civilised countries like England outlawed guns and they don't have a fraction of the violent crime we do. What does that say?

 

[DanP]

Not directed to you Whowee, but to others that brought it up - I wasn't aware that there is a "report a crazy person" hotline. What hotline would this be?

A paranoid's man paradise. Just image, all unqualified retards reporting citizens to the Leviathan's KGB (branch VII, let's Zyclon B all who seem "mad"). Guys, don't transform your country into USSR.

 

[DanP]

I wanted to say I also loved your last post.

Yes, there should be a law that requires this. But we have a crazy country. I know people here will go nuts about guns. Civilised countries like England outlawed guns and they don't have a fraction of the violent crime we do. What does that say?

It says nothing Evo. Israel and Swiss both have enough guns to cause Armageddon should they desire so, yet the rates of crimes are , at least in one case, lower than UK.

We need guns. We need militias, and every citizen of this world should have the right to carry, concealed or not.

"The right to buy weapons is the right to be free".
van Vogt.

The right to carry goes hand in hand with the rights to property and life. For you should be able to defend your life, the life of your kin and your property with a hot weapon, should the need arise. Every civilized nation have the duty to protect the right to bear arms in their Constitution.

 

[DanP]

I don’t know anything about the law in AZ, but in respect of the tolerant gun laws, shouldn’t there a law saying that; if you know anyone that behaves abnormal AND has a gun – you must call the police??

Who are you to say who behaves "abnormally" ?. Do you have a PhD in psychiatric medicine and evaluated a patient directly, in person ? Give me a break. You thread in the footsteps of Stalinist and Nazi regimes. Of Pol Pot and Mao. "Reporting the the political police is the first duty of a citizen", they say. And fear does the rest.

Frankly, even the thought of this makes me sick with disgust.

 

[nismaratwork]

It says nothing Evo. Israel and Swiss both have enough guns to cause Armageddon should they desire so, yet the rates of crimes are , at least in one case, lower than UK.

We need guns. We need militias, and every citizen of this world should have the right to carry, concealed or not.



The right to carry goes hand in hand with the rights to property and life. For you should be able to defend your life, the life of your kin and your property with a hot weapon, should the need arise. Every civilized nation have the duty to protect the right to bear arms in their Constitution.

A good question then is: why do we kill each other with guns so much more every other gun toting nation? Maybe we're just really irresponsible, or maybe it's that we don't just buy and own guns, we also produce a huge number of them, export a huge number... there is MONEY involved here Dan... you do realize that... money and one of the biggest lobbies... in other words more money.

@DA: Nope, has to be a psychotic disorder... bipolar doesn't fit his history, whereas he's literally out of the abnormal psychology textbook for schizophrenia. The only wild card here is drugs, or a DD:NOS. btw, it's unethical for any doctor to act as a doctor in any practical way online; no diagnoses, and every bit of advice pretty much has to begin and end with: "See a doctor"... so... just see the damned doctor people! Sorry... I got off on a tangent there.

 

[Evo]

It says nothing Evo. Israel and Swiss both have enough guns to cause Armageddon should they desire so, yet the rates of crimes are , at least in one case, lower than UK.

And that is nothing like what we see in the US with it's extremely high gun violence. I believe that both of those country's gun owners are due to the mandatory military and the people that have completed their military commitment also being part of keeping those weapons, no? It's not a bunch of loons going out and buying guns.

We need guns. We need militias, and every citizen of this world should have the right to carry, concealed or not.

I think that's paranoid and crazy, backed by evidence from countries that have banned guns.

The right to carry goes hand in hand with the rights to property and life. For you should be able to defend your life, the life of your kin and your property with a hot weapon, should the need arise. Every civilized nation have the duty to protect the right to bear arms in their Constitution.

Again, paranoid and crazy and shown to not be necessary by nations that have outlawed guns. But there is already a thread on guns, we're not going off on that tangent here.

 

[nismaratwork]

Who are you to say who behaves "abnormally" . Do you have a PhD in psychiatric medicine and evaluated a patient directly, in person ? Give me a break. You thread in the footsteps of Stalinist and Nazi regimes. Of Pol Pot and Mao. "Reporting the the political police is the first duty of a citizen", they say. And fear does the rest.

Frankly, even the thought of this makes me sick with disgust.

Um... you're going off the deep end in your rhetoric, and this is the second time in very few posts. Just saying.

edit: You know, I'd add, of all the things to be sick with disgust over, this?! Really? Wow... I'd have pegged you as having a tougher gut.

 

[mheslep]

- I wasn't aware that there is a "report a crazy person" hotline. What hotline would this be?

Very handy actually:
[PLAIN]https://www.physicsforums.com/Prime/buttons/report.gif

 

[nismaratwork]

Very handy actually:
[PLAIN]https://www.physicsforums.com/Prime/buttons/report.gif[/QUOTE]

Now if only we could work out a 'Logan's Run' palm-implant... we'd be set! You see someone having a fight with invisible demons? *BEEP*

Someone flashing on the metro? *BEEP*

ANY non-medical urine collection *BEEEEEEEEEEP* *BEEEP BEEP BEEEEEEEP*

 

[Evo]

Very handy actually:
[PLAIN]https://www.physicsforums.com/Prime/buttons/report.gif[/QUOTE]:smile:

 

[WhoWee]

A good question then is: why do we kill each other with guns so much more every other gun toting nation? Maybe we're just really irresponsible, or maybe it's that we don't just buy and own guns, we also produce a huge number of them, export a huge number... there is MONEY involved here Dan... you do realize that... money and one of the biggest lobbies... in other words more money.

Lawyers - lot's and lot's of lawyers. Btw - I realize the money comment probably took into consideration the lawyer aspect - but I wanted to inject an element of specificity for LAWYERS - they should be given credit when it's due.

 

[nismaratwork]

Lawyers - lot's and lot's of lawyers. Btw - I realize the money comment probably took into consideration the lawyer aspect - but I wanted to inject an element of specificity for LAWYERS - they should be given credit when it's due.

It does, but fair is fair, and I did mention what is a typical talking point.

 

[DanP]

And that is nothing like what we see in the US with it's extremely high gun violence. I believe that both of those country's gun owners are due to the mandatory military and the people that have completed their military commitment also being part of keeping those weapons, no? It's not a bunch of loons going out and buying guns.

.

It doesn't make any difference. Virtually, everyone there own weapons. If you maintain this line of logic, we'll have to conclude that in US just about everyone is a "loon". Yet statistically, I frankly do not believe you have more "loons" than Israel and Swiss.

I think that's paranoid and crazy, backed by evidence from countries that have banned guns.

What evidence ? I am willing to listen to it, but for me correlation studies between 2 factors mean nothing. It has to be a very serious, multifaceted analysis.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I wanted to say I also loved your last post.

Thanks Evo.

Yes, there should be a law that requires this. But we have a crazy country. I know people here will go nuts about guns. Civilised countries like England outlawed guns and they don't have a fraction of the violent crime we do. What does that say?

Well... I’ve wanted to "talk a little" about these matters... but frankly I don’t know if it’s "appropriate"... I have slight feeling some will start shouting "Moron!", "OH NO! Here we go again!"... etc ...

My pure personal speculation without any support in science (as far as I know) is this:

If you put 10 crazy persons in a two big houses where they will live during an "experiment", and in the first house you only play very soft music at low volume and you try to learn them stuff that is not violent, like gardening, painting, cooking, music, ect. And every day you teach them that the owner of this house is a very nice person that only whishes them good things and luck in their life.

In the second house – The Hell House – you also have 10 crazy persons, but here you start with handling out 10 personal M16 rifles and lots of ammo and learn them how to handle it, and you play death metal at max painful level, and you show crazy snuff movies where people die – all the time and every day. And you teach them every hour that the owner of this house is the DEVIL himself and he is trying to destroy their life.​

Now, in which house has the owner "best chances" to be killed by one or more nutcases??

I won’t give you the answerer here, because then the BOOOOO-ing will probably get started "en masse"... just think about it a minute or two...


(And yeah, maybe it’s safest to say that I’m not gay and I’m not walking around in pink dresses... )

 

[DanP]

edit: You know, I'd add, of all the things to be sick with disgust over, this?! Really? Wow... I'd have pegged you as having a tougher gut.

Yeah, scared paranoid snitches is one of the few things I can't digest. If you are a snitch, at least do it for money or for ideology.

 

[DanP]

(And yeah, maybe it’s safest to say that I’m not gay and I’m not walking around in pink dresses... )

just to be on the safe side, I have to ask: What about pink trousers ?

 

[Evo]

It doesn't make any difference. Virtually, everyone there own weapons. If you maintain this line of logic, we'll have to conclude that in US just about everyone is a "loon". Yet statistically, I frankly do not believe you have more "loons" than Israel and Swiss.

But it's a fact, I believe, that the majority gun ownership in these countries is the military.

What evidence ? I am willing to listen to it, but for me correlation studies between 2 factors mean nothing. It has to be a very serious, multifaceted analysis.

Do you have any incident since the US was created that civilians needed to take up arms against the government? Even in the civil war, it was organized, declared war. To say that US citizens need guns to protect themselves aginst the government is crazy. Do citizens in th UK need guns to protect themselves from their government? Yeah, it's loony, IMO.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

The right to carry goes hand in hand with the rights to property and life. For you should be able to defend your life, the life of your kin and your property with a hot weapon, should the need arise. Every civilized nation have the duty to protect the right to bear arms in their Constitution.

Are you sure you have processed this thought all the way?

Who the hell is going to attack you with ONLY guns over the Atlantic or Pacific?

... please don’t tell me the poor Mexicans is a real threat to the last nuclear superpower ...

 

[DanP]

Do you have any incident since the US was created that civilians needed to take up arms against the government? Even in the civil war, it was organized, declared war. To say that US citizens need guns to protect themselves aginst the government is crazy. Do citizens in th UK need guns to protect themselves from their government? Yeah, it's loony, IMO.

Who said anything to hold weapons against the government ? I surely did not. Why do you have to assume that the government is the one who will come after your life, the life of your kin or after property ?

No Evo. You need guns to protect your life, your kin;s life and the property against anyone who represents an active threat against them. I am not much into conspiracy theories. The most plausible threat is a another human coveting what you have and making a move against you. And you must have the right to give them hell. The threat it's not the government, Evo

 

[DanP]

Are you sure you have processed this thought all the way?
/QUOTE]



Who the hell is going to attack you with ONLY guns over the Atlantic or Pacific?

... please don’t tell me the poor Mexicans is a real threat to the last nuclear superpower ...

Oh no, you think that the fact you belong to a nuclear superpower will protect your *** if one of your neighbors decide to come after you, rape your wife and steal your plasma TV ?

Don't make me laugh.

 

[Evo]

Who said anything to hold weapons against the government ? I surely did not. Why do you have to assume that the government is the one who will come after your life, the life of your kin or after property ?

No Evo. You need guns to protect your life, your kin;s life and the property against anyone who represents an active threat against them. I am not much into conspiracy theories. The most plausible threat is a another human coveting what you have and making a move against you. And you must have the right to give them hell. The threat it's not the government, Evo

You said it Dan, you said we needed militias. The only threat is imagined. I have never needed a gun, I doubt I ever will. And the people that claim they need guns, puhlease, they've almost all never had a need. The percent of people that have used a gun in the US for self defense is .02, that's nothing. McDowall, David, Brian Wiersema (1994). "The Incidence of Defensive Firearm Use by US Crime Victims, 1987 through 1990". American Journal of Public Health 84 (12): 1982–1984. doi:10.2105/AJPH.84.12.1982. PMID 7998641.


Like I said, keep this nonsense in the gun thread. I'm serious, you can post your beliefs there, don't derail this thread.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Who are you to say who behaves "abnormally" ?. Do you have a PhD in psychiatric medicine and evaluated a patient directly, in person ? Give me a break. You thread in the footsteps of Stalinist and Nazi regimes. Of Pol Pot and Mao. "Reporting the the political police is the first duty of a citizen", they say. And fear does the rest.

Frankly, even the thought of this makes me sick with disgust.

Elementary my dear Watson, IF you know that person has a gun AND is acting aggressive without no reason whatsoever, AND is posting this stuff on YouTube:

*** WARNING: Turn your volume DOWN if you have kids or anything 'sensitive' near! ***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L1lsLU-kUw

Then it there should be a law enforcing you to do something. It must not be to call the "NAZI Headquarters", or whatever you believe this is all about, it could just be a simple conversation with a qualified doctor. That’s all.

This kind of stuff never worked in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia – they just blow the heads off if they spit in the street. I know you have very a hard time with history and different totalitarian ideologies... like healthcare...

 

[DanP]

You said it Dan, you said we needed militias. The only threat is imagined. I have never needed a gun, I doubt I ever will. And the people that claim they need guns, puhlease, they've almost all never had a need. The percent of people that have used a gun in the US for self defense is .02.

Like I said, keep this nonsense in the gun thread. I'm serious, you can post your beliefs there, don't derail this thread.

Ok, I agree is not the best thread. I won't post anymore here about guns. Yet IMO a militia does not have to work against the government, but with the government, in the service of the community. This is the history at least. It was 1835 when Texas rangers worked to enforce the law, in the service of the republic and the state of Texas. This is what a militia should be.

It seems the term "militia" raises some unjustified fears in a part of a population.

 

[WhoWee]

Elementary my dear Watson, IF you know that person has a gun AND is acting aggressive without no reason whatsoever, AND is posting this stuff on YouTube:

*** WARNING: Turn your volume DOWN if you have kids or anything 'sensitive' near! ***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L1lsLU-kUw

Then it there should be a law enforcing you to do something. It must not be to call the "NAZI Headquarters", or whatever you believe this is all about, it could just be a simple conversation with a qualified doctor. That’s all.

This kind of stuff never worked in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia – they just blow the heads off if they spit in the street. I know you have very a hard time with history and different totalitarian ideologies... like healthcare...

Where's that little button when you need it?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

What about pink trousers ?

Ummm Honey... You going to lend me yours... really!? How nice! Just WOWOWAA BABY!

:zzz:

 

[Proton Soup]

someone must be getting tired of this thread. already derailing it into a gun control debate as a prelude to lock.

 

[mheslep]

But it's a fact, I believe, that the majority gun ownership in these countries is the military...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#Army_issued_arms"

Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 ... Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon ... at home with a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition ..., which is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use takes place.

When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment.

Wiki is in agreement with what I know 2nd hand about the Swiss, that is, if they come to your house and you do not have a gun you go to jail.

A [Swiss] militiaman with his service weapon slung over his shoulder:

On the other side of the argument there is Mexico, with extremely tight gun control laws http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/28/AR2010122803644.html" .

 

[DanP]

Ummm Honey... You going to lend me yours... really!? How nice! Just WOWOWAA BABY!

:zzz:

Sorry to disappoint but I don't have one. But you can have my gf's lipstick.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Very handy actually:
[PLAIN]https://www.physicsforums.com/Prime/buttons/report.gif[/QUOTE]

WELL!?

I’ve been pressing this damned BUTTON FOR 10 MINUTES and now my mouse is BROKEN!

Where can I get MY MONEY back?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Sorry to disappoint but I don't have one. But you can have my gf's lipstick.

Sorry Pink Dude, it doesn’t work for me, I have that Village-People-Mustache all over my face.

... are you sure it’s not your lipstick?? just a sweet little girly with his own little lipstick ...


:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

 

[Evo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#Army_issued_arms"

Wiki is in agreement with what I know 2nd hand about the Swiss, that is, if they come to your house and you do not have a gun you go to jail.

You mean if you do not have *your* military gun? Not that it's illegal to not have a gun.

Ok, let's get this thread back on topic.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Wait! I’VE GOT IT!

DanPink

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Sorry Evo... missed that...

Good night everyone and sorry for the terrible silly pink jokes, anything is apparently possible to get away from the serious matter... Evo post 630 was primarily for you not Billy the Kid & The Pink Outlaws.

 

[Jasongreat]

Do you have any incident since the US was created that civilians needed to take up arms against the government? Even in the civil war, it was organized, declared war. To say that US citizens need guns to protect themselves aginst the government is crazy. Do citizens in th UK need guns to protect themselves from their government? Yeah, it's loony, IMO.

Even though it was a declared war, the difference was we can fight today cause we have our own weapons, instead of we'll wait and fight next week because the new government will have to supply our weapons.