News Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

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U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords was among at least 18 people shot during a constituent meeting at a Tucson grocery store. Initial reports indicated she was shot in the head at point-blank range, leading to concerns about her survival. Eyewitness accounts described the chaotic scene, with multiple casualties, including a federal judge and a child, and a suspect, identified as Jared Lee Loughner, was taken into custody. Discussions centered around the nature of the attack, with speculation about whether it was politically motivated or a personal vendetta. Medical professionals on the scene provided aid, but the prognosis for many victims was grim. The incident sparked debates about gun control and the motivations behind such violent acts, with some arguing that mental illness played a significant role. The tragedy raised concerns about the safety of public figures and the potential impact on political discourse.
  • #51
DevilsAvocado said:
Of course I hope too. But with a perspective from over the Atlantic – there seems to be all the morons you’ll ever need in the Tea Party movement, including aggressive penguins.

For the large number of crazies in the Tea Party, it takes a special kind of person to do something like this. The more I'm hearing about this guy, he sounds like he had some political beliefs that aren't really aligned with any sizable political movement in the US.
 
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  • #52
Jasongreat said:
For a group that usually sticks to the facts, this thread sure has a lot of speculation in it. A person would have a far higher chance of hitting 20 people with a pistol one shot at a time, not fully automatic. There is a reason in the vietnam war the average was somewhere around 50,000 rounds fired for each kill, iirc.

Rhody: High capacity magazines are nothing new, I had a 30 round clip for my 1911 .45. It is true though that stock most are usually from 10-15 depending on the caliber and the style of grip.

True, this is overly speculative. I'm sure we'll see what happened before the night is over.
 
  • #53
There is a lot of speculation here, in large part by people with little (apparent) familiarity with modern firearms. I have a Glock model 20 with 3 full clips. It takes a little more than a second to eject a clip and slam another one in, so 16 rounds x 3 as fast as you can pull the trigger. You don't need a machine-pistol to kill a bunch of people in a crowd.

Let's settle down and find out what actually happened.
 
  • #54
Pengwuino said:
For the large number of crazies in the Tea Party, it takes a special kind of person to do something like this. The more I'm hearing about this guy, he sounds like he had some political beliefs that aren't really aligned with any sizable political movement in the US.

I pray to 'Einstein' that you are right.
 
  • #55
Jasongreat said:
For a group that usually sticks to the facts, this thread sure has a lot of speculation in it. A person would have a far higher chance of hitting 20 people with a pistol one shot at a time, not fully automatic. There is a reason in the vietnam war the average was somewhere around 50,000 rounds fired for each kill, iirc.

Rhody: High capacity magazines are nothing new, I had a 30 round clip for my 1911 .45. It is true though that stock most are usually from 10-15 depending on the caliber and the style of grip.

Yes, but they'd have to be a crack shot with a handgun, and evade counter-fire. Spray and pray is still the most likely explanation, but in theory you're correct. Remember that above all, this is an attempted (so far) assassination of a public official at point blank range. Clearly the rest was just more for him, and I don't know that picking people off is likely. It's mostly speculation however, but that's why I made this in GD. Remember that these kind of people share common beliefs, common goals (not specific, but personal) to make themselves a part of what they see as 'right history'... hence I suspect his "mein kampf" and "communist manifesto" love.

DevilsAvocado: It's the first thing I thought, and if I were to bet, it's still what I'd put money on. HOWEVER... this guy loved 2 really really REALLY nasty books... or rather, books which espouse a terrible world-view.

I have to say, in this case I think pengwuino is right... this guy reeks of, 'LOOK AT ME!', and just latching on to what his type sees as 'powerful' ideologies.
 
  • #56
jarednjames said:
I'm not enjoying reading "Jared" all the time. :frown:

Despite knowing I'm not the only one, it feels strange to read that especially given the topic at hand.

Anyhow, wouldn't anyone capable of this be considered mentally unstable?

jarednjames,

Yeah, I get the guilt by association thing, let's let the FBI, etc... do their work and let the chips fall where they may. I would be willing to bet by Monday we will know much much more, although probably not every last detail. In these days of instant access to information 24/7 in near real time, I can't even begin to imagine what his family and friends must be experiencing at the moment. There is nothing else for me to say in this thread so I will bow out here. This plain sucks.

Rhody...
 
  • #57
DevilsAvocado said:
I pray to 'Einstein' that you are right.

Consider: You're a right wing, Palin-loving psychopath who thinks it's your mandate to kill this woman. You shoot her in the head... why do you open fire on a crowd, and a 9 year old girl? That's a mass-killer, spree-killer... that type... they're more alike than not, and their ideology is always window dressing.

Stress + Nuts + Means/Motive/Opportunity = Tragedy.
 
  • #58
What incredible irony! Guess who read the First Amendment on the floor of the House the other day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkSJMxILF9M

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
  • #59
Ivan Seeking said:
What incredible irony! Guess who read the First Amendment on the floor of the House the other day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkSJMxILF9M

Better the first than the second in the irony department. I find it disturbing to see someone alive and vital, who's fighting to live as I type.
 
  • #60
I never went to www.sarahpac.com before, but I went there just now and I couldn't find the target map. Does anyone know where to look, or did she perhaps remove it. There is a statement of sympathy for the victims of the shooting.
 
  • #61
Jimmy Snyder said:
Does anyone know where to look

It’s gone, you can find it http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/congresswoman-gabrie.html" .
 
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  • #62
nismaratwork said:
Better the first than the second in the irony department.

True!

I find it disturbing to see someone alive and vital, who's fighting to live as I type.

It seems that she was incredibly lucky. According to Sanjay Gupta on CNN, who is himself a neurosurgeon, that the attending neurosugeon expressed optimism that she will recover, is highly significant. One would not normally expect this given the nature of the injury.

It was a Glock 9mm, which is not something you would expect to survive at point blank.
 
  • #63
Pengwuino said:
True. I do really hope he is mentally ill, though. If he isn't, then God help us if people are capable of this.

We all are. You included. You just haven't been pushed far enough yet. I'm not saying the shooter is or isn't crazy. Most people refuse to believe that they are capable of something like this. Main difference between people is how much 'pushing' and in what way.
 
  • #64
DevilsAvocado said:
It’s gone, you can find it http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/congresswoman-gabrie.html" .
I meant where to look on Palin's site. Apparently she did take it down.
 
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  • #65
Jimmy Snyder said:
I never went to www.sarahpac.com before, but I went there just now and I couldn't find the target map. Does anyone know where to look, or did she perhaps remove it. There is a statement of sympathy for the victims of the shooting.

It was originally on her FaceBook page.
 
  • #66
Pengwuino said:
For the large number of crazies in the Tea Party, it takes a special kind of person to do something like this. The more I'm hearing about this guy, he sounds like he had some political beliefs that aren't really aligned with any sizable political movement in the US.

As I posted elsewhere on PF previously, my only experience with the Tea Party is a clip from TV of a guy ranting how he wanted "all commies to die" and then threatened to kill the camera man "if he was a commie" (he said he wasn't and the guy let it go).

He was screaming and shouting and someone I believe would do as he said. I always find it disturbing to see people like this.

I know it doesn't represent the whole Tea Party, but it only takes one with this mentality to take things a bit to seriously (as with that list).
 
  • #67
DevilsAvocado said:
It’s gone, you can find it http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/congresswoman-gabrie.html" .

Thanks.

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/sarahpac_0.jpg
 
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  • #68
nismaratwork said:
why do you open fire on a crowd, and a 9 year old girl?

I guess you’re right.

As a little boy, I loved guns and I used to hunt with my granddad in the woods and win shooting contests, etc, but that went over as a teenager, when my electric guitar became my gun of love.

This is clearly some "cultural clash", if I didn’t know better, I would guess that you guys are professional hitmen for god’s sake. I have absolutely no idea what caliber it takes to blow a hole in a human skull, and I’m proud of it.

I guess, and I hope, that you and Pengwuino are right. BUT, this reasoning builds on the fact the crazy gunman and Gabrielle Giffords was in the same place by pure chance and nothing more...

It’s maybe useless and dumb to speculate anymore.

My thoughts go to the 6 killed and injured...

vnles6.jpg
 
  • #69
Ivan Seeking said:
True!



It seems that she was incredibly lucky. According to Sanjay Gupta on CNN, who is himself a neurosurgeon, that the attending neurosugeon expressed optimism that she will recover, is highly significant. One would not normally expect this given the nature of the injury.

It was a Glock 9mm, which is not something you would expect to survive at point blank.

I'm stunned... and the surgeon stated clearly that the bullet passed through the brain. At this point, I'm sure her doctors are stunned too.


DA: I know what you mean about the professional hitmen; they're psychopaths, and these people are psychopaths as well. Both are predators of their own kind, both for reasons a sane person would reject, and both are just plain scary. Just remember, we have a sensational media, and while this is terrible, until I see anything but a continued drop in national murder rates, I'm accepting that this is unusual and the rest is mostly media distortion.
 
  • #71
nismaratwork said:
I'm stunned... and the surgeon stated clearly that the bullet passed through the brain. At this point, I'm sure her doctors are stunned too.


DA: I know what you mean about the professional hitmen; they're psychopaths, and these people are psychopaths as well. Both are predators of their own kind, both for reasons a sane person would reject, and both are just plain scary. Just remember, we have a sensational media, and while this is terrible, until I see anything but a continued drop in national murder rates, I'm accepting that this is unusual and the rest is mostly media distortion.

Professional hitmen are psychopaths?
 
  • #72
My wife and I visited Tucson several times during my mother's last years there (2005-08), so we were naturally curious about exactly where this happened. The national TV news reports apparently don't consider this information important for a national audience, so I had to rummage around Tucson TV web sites for a while. I finally found it: the Safeway on Oracle Road at Ina, about a mile north of the motel where we always stayed, and where we usually shopped for groceries. :eek:
 
  • #73
Newai said:
Professional hitmen are psychopaths?

Phhhh... OK... let me clarify:

The profile of a the kind of "professional murder for hire" architect that people refer to as a "hitman", is that of a high functioning sociopath/psychopath (Now called Anti-Social Personality Disorder). So... yes.

In this modern age, we have a kind of narco-child soldier who the media calls hitmen, but are really just like child soldiers everywhere... they're traumatized certainly, but their acts often don't reflect their own choices.
 
  • #74
jtbell said:
My wife and I visited Tucson several times during my mother's last years there (2005-08), so we were naturally curious about exactly where this happened. The national TV news reports apparently don't consider this information important for a national audience, so I had to rummage around Tucson TV web sites for a while. I finally found it: the Safeway on Oracle Road at Ina, about a mile north of the motel where we always stayed, and where we usually shopped for groceries. :eek:

Oh... you have GOT to put that here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=16317&page=9
 
  • #75
I've now seen Mathamateur's report earlier in this thread. I hope he isn't as shook up about this as I would have been if I had been there.
 
  • #77
At this point, all I can say is that clearly the actions of paramedics, and everyone who rendered first aid and primary care saved a lot of lives, and at least gave this woman a chance. That's to be commended, although I haven't heard anything about it on the news... shocker.Jared: OMG... it's Ivan... he's Sylar!
 
  • #78
  • #79
Jimmy Snyder said:
I meant where to look on Palin's site. Apparently she did take it down.

What!? "Chinese censorship"?? www.sarahpac.com works just fine from Sweden?

SP is giving her "sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today's tragic shooting in Arizona".

Which to me means her map (gone) was not smartest move in the world...

Try http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:o0grR1HQrV0J:www.sarahpac.com/+http://www.sarahpac.com/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=en" and let me know if this doesn’t work.


EDIT: Misunderstanding, "she did take it down" [the site], sorry...
 
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  • #80
I think Palin's ad was neither offensive or dumb, it was an evidently playful manner of identifying key political antagonists.

That they have pulled that ad down now is the only decent thing they could do.

Not because the ad was indecent in itself, but that the massacre has irredeemably poisoned it, through no fault of Palin's or her associates.

If they HAD kept the ad going, though, they would themselves have become grossly offensive.

If somebody throws garbage on your clothes, you should not wear those soiled pieces of cloth, but find something else to wear.
 
  • #81
Pengwuino said:
From everything I'm hearing about the guy and the people who were shot, I wonder if the judge was the target.

http://www.youthlaw.org/litigation/ncyl_cases/healthmental_health/1/

A good question --- just too much time in the courtroom with people who lack the mental stability to be loose on the streets? Bad scene.
 
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  • #82
DevilsAvocado said:
What!? "Chinese censorship"??
We're not communicating well. I meant she took down the map, not the site.
 
  • #83
arildno said:
I think Palin's ad was neither offensive or dumb,

Riflescopes and "17 more to go" is a smart ad...? :eek:
 
  • #84
Jimmy Snyder said:
We're not communicating well. I meant she took down the map, not the site.

Yeah I know... check the EDIT part... ;)
 
  • #85
DevilsAvocado said:
Riflescopes and "17 more to go" is a smart ad...? :eek:

Not being dumb doesn't imply smart. It was just an ad. No one makes a big deal out of anything until something happens, which means it is just knee-jerk reactionary complaints. There have been ads like this for decades and no one complained because no sane person is going to take an ad and use it as a call to arms to go kill someone in real life. A crazy person doesn't need an ad, however.
 
  • #86
arildno said:
I think Palin's ad was neither offensive or dumb, it was an evidently playful manner of identifying key political antagonists.

You probably don't live in a country where guns are as prevalent as the US. IMO, identifying targets of a political campaign with gun scopes is both offensive and dumb.
 
  • #87
lisab said:
You probably don't live in a country where guns are as prevalent as the US. IMO, identifying targets of a political campaign with gun scopes is both offensive and dumb.
ACTUALLY, we have a much higher ownership percentage of guns here in Norway than "over there".

We use them to kill moose&grouse.

Or, should that be goose&mice? :confused:
 
  • #88
Has anyone seen a picture of this person? I can not see videos on this computer.
 
  • #89
DevilsAvocado said:
Riflescopes and "17 more to go" is a smart ad...? :eek:

Is intelligence a two-valued variable? :confused:
 
  • #91
arildno said:
ACTUALLY, we have a much higher ownership percentage of guns here in Norway than "over there".

We use them to kill moose&grouse.

Or, should that be goose&mice? :confused:

Does Norway have compulsory service in the military?
 
  • #92
lisab said:
Rhody found some stuff here -

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3072533&postcount=45

Thank you. So sorry. How sad. I wonder if that's mom or if that has been said already.
I have to go to the market right now and I don't even feel like going out. I usually fear more for the punks than for me when I go out with my granny cart. But not now. Not tonight.
 
  • #93
I've read some of this poor bastard's writing, and he's out of his mind. Grandiosity is off the charts, with claims of being able to, "control all of the world's religions". The writing structure is rambling and repetitive, which screams either Schizophrenia, a manic state due to bipolar disorder, (perfect age for a psychotic break in either case), or my favorite: delusional disorder not otherwise specified aka... crazy spree killer.

What's clear from his writing and actions is that this murderer's mind is not working properly. I'm sure there will be debates about whether he was "pointed" in this direction, but it's clear he was a bomb about to explode... where and how were secondary to the act of detonating.
 
  • #94
It's appaling how much about guns and getting rid of this woman there have been.

Giffords had been target of violent threats

In August 2009, an attendee at a Giffords town-hall meeting dropped a handgun, leading Giffords's staff to call the police. "We have never felt the need before to notify law enforcement when we hold these events," her spokesman said at the time.

That same month, Sarah Palin's political action committee posted a map of the US, showing the locations of the 20 Democratic members of Congress, including Giffords, it was targeting for defeat. Each location was marked by an image of a gun crosshairs.

Palin's camp dismissed charges that she was encouraging acts of violence, saying she had spoken out against violence. But Giffords herself was one of many who spoke out against the image, telling MSNBC: "When people do that, they've got to realize there's consequences to that action."

In June, the campaign of Giffords' Republican opponent in this year's midterms, Jesse Kelly, placed an ad that read: "Get on target for victory in November/ Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office/ Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly."

The website for Kelly, a former US Marine, depicted him with holding an automatic weapon.
And we're surprised someone went on a shooting spree?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110108/ts_yblog_thelookout/giffords-had-been-target-of-violent-threats
 
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  • #95
One guy that was interviewed who was at the shooting said that the gathering was so small that the 19 people shot constituted a majority of the gathering. That's just awful...
 
  • #96
Evo said:
It's appaling how much about guns and getting rid of this woman there have been.

And we're surprised someone went on a shooting spree?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110108/ts_yblog_thelookout/giffords-had-been-target-of-violent-threats

Huh... that is troubling, but still... a little early to draw conclusions or use this as an example. The behaviour you describe is still reprehensible, and I think bordering on illegal, but it doesn't mean that THIS guy was truly a symptom of that disease. We have to be better than jumping to that, or any other, conclusion.
 
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  • #97
Pengwuino said:
One guy that was interviewed who was at the shooting said that the gathering was so small that the 19 people shot constituted a majority of the gathering. That's just awful...

No security on site, and for reasons that mystify me it seems that this is the one gathering in AZ without people packing heat! Those people were without much cover, and no way to defend themselves until police responded. By all accounts that response was rapid, but it doesn't take very long to kill people.
 
  • #98
Pengwuino said:
Not being dumb doesn't imply smart. It was just an ad. No one makes a big deal out of anything until something happens, which means it is just knee-jerk reactionary complaints. There have been ads like this for decades and no one complained because no sane person is going to take an ad and use it as a call to arms to go kill someone in real life. A crazy person doesn't need an ad, however.

Maybe you’re right... I just hope that everyone is as smart as you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="480" height="385">
<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/erHH3SXkZkU&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca"></param>
<param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param>
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/erHH3SXkZkU&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed>
</object>
 
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  • #99
nismaratwork said:
Does Norway have compulsory service in the military?

Actually, yes.
Grouse droppings is a MAJOR contaminant in the midlands, and moose trample down our gardens.

So, where would we be without military conscription?
 
  • #100
DevilsAvocado said:
Maybe you’re right... I just hope that everyone is as smart as you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="480" height="385">
<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/erHH3SXkZkU&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca"></param>
<param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param>
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/erHH3SXkZkU&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed>
</object>

Lets say that he killed THESE people because of the current environment; economy, media saturation, negative ads, INSANE tea-people. Let's POSIT that ok? Let's also posit, and I think we can do this now more and more safely *nod to pengwuino* that this man is mentallly ill aka NUTS.

Is it better that he shoot up a random group, or a school, a job, etc? If a bullet is fired, and is bound to kill one of a given set of targets, which is the best to choose? In a sick and devil's advocate (IRONY) way, you could say the public servant taking the bullet, and being the magnet for this kind of behaviour is... civic.
 
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