Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

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SUMMARY

On January 8, 2011, U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot at a grocery store in Tucson, Arizona, during a constituent meeting, resulting in her death. Reports indicate she was shot in the head at point-blank range, with conflicting information about her condition during surgery. The shooter, identified as 22-year-old Jared Loughner, also killed Federal Judge John Roll and injured at least 18 others, including a child. Eyewitness accounts describe a chaotic scene with multiple gunshots and severe injuries.

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  • #31
jarednjames said:
Not so. In comparison to others, it is an easy to access and particularly effective 'choice' within the USA.

Regardless, there are certain events which I don't give sympathy to. Aside from the child, it applies in this case.

I'm not trying to start a debate, I don't want to discuss it. But if people are going to come and give their opinion of "oh how sad", I feel it's only fair I give mine (providing I don't degrade the discussion to "they deserved it" or likewise - I don't think they deserved it before anyone comes at me with that).

Yes it's sad, yes it's a tragic loss of life. But I can't feel sympathy that reason alone.

Jared, if you wanted to take that whole crowd out, the most efficient way would be to hijack a large vehicle such as a dump-truck, and mow them down. In the confusion, you could then attack with knives, or leave an explosive and escape. In fact, for this kind of attack, a gun is simply the chosen tool of someone who want to be LOUD, to be heard and seen, and to use a tool that's familiar.
 
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  • #32
Pengwuino said:
From everything I'm hearing about the guy and the people who were shot, I wonder if the judge was the target.

We may never know, but certainly we won't know anytime soon.
 
  • #33
nismaratwork said:
You were correct about the confusion, but not about which. I was thinking: .308 winchester, not a .38 or .380.

Anyway, I was wrong about that, but I think this is enough talk of ballistics. My experience is that the outcome is often poor for a high velocity round to the head, although a through-through is a FAR better outcome than the alternative. Will she live? GOK. Will she ever be the same? Not a chance.
nismara, Ivan,

If it was an an AR15 versus a cheap small caliber low velocity 22 handgun, puzzling because handguns do not hold 15 - 20 round clips if reporting is correct, unless multiple pistols were used, the http://www.proguns.com/ar15-ammunition.asp" round that the AR is capable if firing is high velocity, although the bullet size is quite small, a bit larger than a 22 round. I target practiced with a few of AR15's in my youth and it can do a lot of damage, especially with hollow point ammunition, because a hollow point mushrooms and creates a jagged projectile and then starts to tumble in its target when hitting something hard.

Rhody...

from the NATO link:
The first type of ammunition, 5.56x45mm, is the U.S. military designation of ammo for their AR 15, which they renamed the M16. Although the 5.56 and the .223 have identical dimensions, the 5.56 is usually designed for higher pressures and velocities and is generally considered to be unsafe to shoot from the civilian AR 15.
 
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  • #34
rhody said:
nismara, Ivan,

If it was an an AR15 versus a cheap small caliber low velocity 22 handgun, puzzling because handguns do not hold 15 - 20 round clips if reporting is correct, unless multiple pistols were used, the http://www.proguns.com/ar15-ammunition.asp" round that the AR is capable if firing is high velocity, although the bullet size is quite small, a bit larger than a 22 round. I target practiced with a few of AR15's in my youth and it can do a lot of damage, especially with hollow point ammunition, because a hollow point mushrooms and creates a jagged projectile and then starts to tumble in its target when hitting something hard.

Rhody...

from the NATO link:

It's overwhelmingly likely that it was a modified weapon, or illegal to begin with. A modified AR-15 is for all intents and purposes, an M-16. The small, high velocity rounds are designed to defeat body armor.

Given that 17 people are confirmed shot, unless this was a modified pistol of extreme rarity, and an EXCEPTIONAL marksman, this was an assault rifle, or possibly and less likely, a submachine gun.

btw: Low velocity, high caliber strategy: punch holes.
med vel/med cal: mushroom
low vel/low cal: tumble
high vel/low cal: over-penetrate and cause massive cavitation, fragmentation wounds, and tumbling.

example of a .308 hunting round, which has a large wound track than you'd find in this case. [URL]http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/308%20Winchester.jpg[/quote][/URL]

This is the last I'll say on ballistics. This is a tragedy, and although I can't help but have a detached element, I think this is enough.
 
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  • #35
A terrible and horrible tragedy...

And serious guys – why all this ballistic talk...?? WTF is going on? This will keep me awake tonight:

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/congresswoman-gabrie.html"

sarahpac_0.jpg
 
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  • #36
DevilsAvocado said:
A terrible and horrible tragedy...

And serious guys – why all this ballistic talk...?? WTF is going on? This will keep me awake tonight:

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/congresswoman-gabrie.html"

sarahpac_0.jpg

Oh man... I really really hope, as much as it seems like a fair hypothesis, that such things had nothing to do with this. I really do.

I should note, I was incorrect about the name of the shooter: it is: Jared Lee Laughner, 22 years old, weapons recovered. We'll probably have more answers than anyone wants soon, and hopefully I'm pessimistic and wrong; this was not a bullet that penetrated her skull, and those still in danger won't die. I hope, but I doubt.
 
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  • #37
Honestly, can't you morons keep politics out of even something like this? The guy was a psychotic. He didn't need Sarah Palin to tell him to do this.
 
  • #38
Pengwuino said:
Honestly, can't you morons keep politics out of even something like this? The guy was a psychotic.

You may be right, even literally right. The thing is, it may be that he was unstable AND politically motivated, or that he wasn't mentally ill at all. Doing something terrible doesn't require mental illness, but they do often coincide it seems. The motivation that a killer states may be a contributing factor to the choice of target, but I agree with what I think you're basically saying: this guy was going to kill people.

What others want and NEED to know for the sake of psychology, and security, is why these people, and why now? Personally, if I had to guess, ruling out mental illness as the most obvious factor, it would be: this **** happens, and the first thing we do is try to find a reason. Is this statistically unusual, or just disastrous, but statistically likely within a given period?
 
  • #39
Pengwuino said:
Honestly, can't you morons keep politics out of even something like this? The guy was a psychotic. He didn't need Sarah Palin to tell him to do this.

You calling me a moron?
 
  • #40
nismaratwork said:
You may be right, even literally right. The thing is, it may be that he was unstable AND politically motivated, or that he wasn't mentally ill at all. Doing something terrible doesn't require mental illness, but they do often coincide it seems. The motivation that a killer states may be a contributing factor to the choice of target, but I agree with what I think you're basically saying: this guy was going to kill people.

What others want and NEED to know for the sake of psychology, and security, is why these people, and why now? Personally, if I had to guess, ruling out mental illness as the most obvious factor, it would be: this **** happens, and the first thing we do is try to find a reason. Is this statistically unusual, or just disastrous, but statistically likely within a given period?

From what the news is telling about what they could dig up on him, he sounds crazy. Going up to a group of people and opening fire and hitting 20 of them requires mental illness in my books.

The latest is that he used a pistol, which I assumed means it was a modified fully automatic pistol.
 
  • #41
Pengwuino said:
From what the news is telling about what they could dig up on him, he sounds crazy. Going up to a group of people and opening fire and hitting 20 of them requires mental illness in my books.

The latest is that he used a pistol, which I assumed means it was a modified fully automatic pistol.

It seems to be a glock 9mm, which as you say, was probably extended in the magazine and modified to be automatic. What people perceived as individual shots were likely bursts.


As for your opinion that he must be crazy, that's your opinion. I for one, need more, but I understand why you believe what you do. He could just be really angry, and immature. When you have a lot of people, you get variations that aren't insane, but still homicidal.
 
  • #42
nismaratwork said:
It seems to be a glock 9mm, which as you say, was probably extended in the magazine and modified to be automatic. What people perceived as individual shots were likely bursts.


As for your opinion that he must be crazy, that's your opinion. I for one, need more, but I understand why you believe what you do. He could just be really angry, and immature. When you have a lot of people, you get variations that aren't insane, but still homicidal.

True. I do really hope he is mentally ill, though. If he isn't, then God help us if people are capable of this.
 
  • #43
The crucial point is that whatever you think of Sarah Palin and her "ad", she and her adherents can be given NO responsibility whatsoever for this evil act, EVEN IF S.P could have expected that some crazy guy MIGHT take her "ad" as an invitation to his sick action.
 
  • #44
Pengwuino said:
True. I do really hope he is mentally ill, though. If he isn't, then God help us if people are capable of this.

I do too.

arildno said:
The crucial point is that whatever you think of Sarah Palin and her "ad", she and her adherents can be given NO responsibility whatsoever for this evil act, EVEN IF S.P could have expected that some crazy guy MIGHT take her "ad" as an invitation to his sick action.

Agreed.
 
  • #45
Normally I love Google, but not in this time. I just did a little searching, and found http://www.zerohedge.com/article/jared-lee-laughners-youtube-site-reveals-clues-about-killer-lists-mein-kampf-and-communist-m" on: Jared Lee Loughner From Zero Hedge.com, which appears to be experiencing problems at the moment. If the site is still up by the time you hit this I took what I think is a screen grab of Jared, who looks like a college kid. Why couldn't he be the overweight Jared that made Subway famous and this whole horrible story be just a nightmare, instead of this horrible crime/tragedy.

I am sure we will be hearing much more about ZeroHedge as well.

Rhody...
 

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  • #46
rhody said:
Normally I love Google, but not in this time. I just did a little searching, and found http://www.zerohedge.com/article/jared-lee-laughners-youtube-site-reveals-clues-about-killer-lists-mein-kampf-and-communist-m" on: Jared Lee Loughner From Zero Hedge.com, which appears to be experiencing problems at the moment. If the site is still up by the time you hit this I took what I think is a screen grab of Jared, who looks like a college kid. Why couldn't he be the overweight Jared that made Subway famous and this whole horrible story be just a nightmare, instead of this horrible crime/tragedy.

I am sure we will be hearing much more about ZeroHedge as well.

Rhody...

OK, I'm going to put down one vote with Pengwuino for "nuts".
 
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  • #47
nismaratwork said:
Oh man... I really really hope, as much as it seems like a fair hypothesis, that such things had nothing to do with this. I really do.

Of course I hope too. But with a perspective from over the Atlantic – there seems to be all the morons you’ll ever need in the Tea Party movement, including aggressive penguins.
 
  • #48
I'm not enjoying reading "Jared" all the time. :frown:

Despite knowing I'm not the only one, it feels strange to read that especially given the topic at hand.

Anyhow, wouldn't anyone capable of this be considered mentally unstable?
 
  • #49
For a group that usually sticks to the facts, this thread sure has a lot of speculation in it. A person would have a far higher chance of hitting 20 people with a pistol one shot at a time, not fully automatic. There is a reason in the vietnam war the average was somewhere around 50,000 rounds fired for each kill, iirc.

Rhody: High capacity magazines are nothing new, I had a 30 round clip for my 1911 .45. It is true though that stock most are usually from 10-15 depending on the caliber and the style of grip.
 
  • #50
arildno said:
The crucial point is that whatever you think of Sarah Palin and her "ad", she and her adherents can be given NO responsibility whatsoever for this evil act, EVEN IF S.P could have expected that some crazy guy MIGHT take her "ad" as an invitation to his sick action.

Big thanks arildno, and I AM grateful the at least one brain is activated over there.
 
  • #51
DevilsAvocado said:
Of course I hope too. But with a perspective from over the Atlantic – there seems to be all the morons you’ll ever need in the Tea Party movement, including aggressive penguins.

For the large number of crazies in the Tea Party, it takes a special kind of person to do something like this. The more I'm hearing about this guy, he sounds like he had some political beliefs that aren't really aligned with any sizable political movement in the US.
 
  • #52
Jasongreat said:
For a group that usually sticks to the facts, this thread sure has a lot of speculation in it. A person would have a far higher chance of hitting 20 people with a pistol one shot at a time, not fully automatic. There is a reason in the vietnam war the average was somewhere around 50,000 rounds fired for each kill, iirc.

Rhody: High capacity magazines are nothing new, I had a 30 round clip for my 1911 .45. It is true though that stock most are usually from 10-15 depending on the caliber and the style of grip.

True, this is overly speculative. I'm sure we'll see what happened before the night is over.
 
  • #53
There is a lot of speculation here, in large part by people with little (apparent) familiarity with modern firearms. I have a Glock model 20 with 3 full clips. It takes a little more than a second to eject a clip and slam another one in, so 16 rounds x 3 as fast as you can pull the trigger. You don't need a machine-pistol to kill a bunch of people in a crowd.

Let's settle down and find out what actually happened.
 
  • #54
Pengwuino said:
For the large number of crazies in the Tea Party, it takes a special kind of person to do something like this. The more I'm hearing about this guy, he sounds like he had some political beliefs that aren't really aligned with any sizable political movement in the US.

I pray to 'Einstein' that you are right.
 
  • #55
Jasongreat said:
For a group that usually sticks to the facts, this thread sure has a lot of speculation in it. A person would have a far higher chance of hitting 20 people with a pistol one shot at a time, not fully automatic. There is a reason in the vietnam war the average was somewhere around 50,000 rounds fired for each kill, iirc.

Rhody: High capacity magazines are nothing new, I had a 30 round clip for my 1911 .45. It is true though that stock most are usually from 10-15 depending on the caliber and the style of grip.

Yes, but they'd have to be a crack shot with a handgun, and evade counter-fire. Spray and pray is still the most likely explanation, but in theory you're correct. Remember that above all, this is an attempted (so far) assassination of a public official at point blank range. Clearly the rest was just more for him, and I don't know that picking people off is likely. It's mostly speculation however, but that's why I made this in GD. Remember that these kind of people share common beliefs, common goals (not specific, but personal) to make themselves a part of what they see as 'right history'... hence I suspect his "mein kampf" and "communist manifesto" love.

DevilsAvocado: It's the first thing I thought, and if I were to bet, it's still what I'd put money on. HOWEVER... this guy loved 2 really really REALLY nasty books... or rather, books which espouse a terrible world-view.

I have to say, in this case I think pengwuino is right... this guy reeks of, 'LOOK AT ME!', and just latching on to what his type sees as 'powerful' ideologies.
 
  • #56
jarednjames said:
I'm not enjoying reading "Jared" all the time. :frown:

Despite knowing I'm not the only one, it feels strange to read that especially given the topic at hand.

Anyhow, wouldn't anyone capable of this be considered mentally unstable?

jarednjames,

Yeah, I get the guilt by association thing, let's let the FBI, etc... do their work and let the chips fall where they may. I would be willing to bet by Monday we will know much much more, although probably not every last detail. In these days of instant access to information 24/7 in near real time, I can't even begin to imagine what his family and friends must be experiencing at the moment. There is nothing else for me to say in this thread so I will bow out here. This plain sucks.

Rhody...
 
  • #57
DevilsAvocado said:
I pray to 'Einstein' that you are right.

Consider: You're a right wing, Palin-loving psychopath who thinks it's your mandate to kill this woman. You shoot her in the head... why do you open fire on a crowd, and a 9 year old girl? That's a mass-killer, spree-killer... that type... they're more alike than not, and their ideology is always window dressing.

Stress + Nuts + Means/Motive/Opportunity = Tragedy.
 
  • #58
What incredible irony! Guess who read the First Amendment on the floor of the House the other day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkSJMxILF9M

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
  • #59
Ivan Seeking said:
What incredible irony! Guess who read the First Amendment on the floor of the House the other day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkSJMxILF9M

Better the first than the second in the irony department. I find it disturbing to see someone alive and vital, who's fighting to live as I type.
 
  • #60
I never went to www.sarahpac.com before, but I went there just now and I couldn't find the target map. Does anyone know where to look, or did she perhaps remove it. There is a statement of sympathy for the victims of the shooting.
 

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