Reviewing Efficiency of Otto & Diesel Cycle Heat Engines

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the efficiency of ideal heat engines operating on the Otto and Diesel cycles, focusing on the concept of relative efficiency and comparisons between mechanical and thermal efficiencies. Participants explore theoretical versus practical cycles and the implications of these efficiencies in the context of heat engines.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the term "relative efficiency" and the expectations of the question regarding the Otto and Diesel cycles.
  • Another participant suggests using online resources to find information on the differences between the Otto and Diesel cycles.
  • Some participants clarify that the question does not specifically ask about mechanical and thermal efficiencies, but rather about the cycles themselves.
  • There is a discussion about the meaning of "ideal" in the context of heat engines, with some suggesting it implies no losses.
  • One participant proposes that if the Diesel cycle has higher thermal efficiency, it might imply higher mechanical efficiency, but others note that thermal and mechanical efficiencies are not directly related.
  • A summary statement is presented, indicating that the Diesel cycle theoretically has greater output and efficiency than the Otto cycle, referencing PV diagrams.
  • Concerns are raised about whether the assumptions of the Carnot cycle apply to the Diesel and Otto cycles, particularly regarding wasted energy and temperature differentials.
  • Another participant elaborates on the relationship between thermal efficiency and mechanical efficiency, noting that higher thermal efficiency does not necessarily correlate with higher mechanical efficiency due to potential losses in real engines.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit uncertainty regarding the definitions and implications of relative efficiency, as well as the relationship between thermal and mechanical efficiencies. Multiple competing views remain on how these efficiencies relate to the Otto and Diesel cycles.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the theoretical nature of the Carnot cycle compared to the practical applications of the Otto and Diesel cycles. There are unresolved questions about the assumptions that apply to these cycles and how they impact efficiency calculations.

lee123456789
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Homework Statement
Review the relative efficiency of ideal heat engines working on the Otto and Diesel cycles.
Relevant Equations
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Hi, i have this question and don't understand it. can somebody explain what i have to do.
i know a ideal engine is a engine running on carnot cycle
i what the cycles are
i don't know what relative efficiency is and what there looking for
(Q) Review the relative efficiency of ideal heat engines working on the Otto and Diesel cycles.
 
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You've been given the cycle names to review (neither was Carnot). It's easy enough to Google the equations for efficiency...or look them up in your textbook.
 
russ_watters said:
You've been given the cycle names to review (neither was Carnot). It's easy enough to Google the equations for efficiency...or look them up in your textbook.
ive written about mechanical and thermal effiency for both. the ideal engine bit and relative efficency got me. every other question specifically said mechanical and thermal efficency
 
What is ideal heat engine. The ideal bit got me.
In the question am I just comparing mechanical efficency and thermal efficiency.
 
lee123456789 said:
ive written about mechanical and thermal effiency for both. the ideal engine bit and relative efficency got me. every other question specifically said mechanical and thermal efficency
You didn't ask us about "mechanical and thermal efficiency". What, exactly, did these other questions ask?

"Ideal" here generally just means no other losses.

P.S., the first hit on Google for my guess at that follow-up question is a 5 year old PF thread.
 
russ_watters said:
You didn't ask us about "mechanical and thermal efficiency". What, exactly, did these other questions ask?

"Ideal" here generally just means no other losses.

P.S., the first hit on Google for my guess at that follow-up question is a 5 year old PF thread.
comparing otto vs diesel in heat engine, if deisel has higher thermal efficiency and work done would that mean it has high mechanical efficiency.
 
I just want to check my comments i made, if it makes sense before i submit

Summery statement I've made

  • Otto and Diesel both have practical and theory cycles whereas carnot has only theoretical cycle.
  • If heat engines where running the theory cycles of Otto and Diesel, there would higher effiency than their practical cycles.
  • Diesel Theory cycle has greater output and effiency than Otto cycle by looking at PV digrams.
  • the Carnot cycle would have the highest efficiency, it determines the maximum possible efficiency in heat engines.
Theory assumptions for carnot cycle. (do these assumptions apply to diesel and otto cycle aswell?)
  • There is zero wasted energy as it is because assumed there is no friction and output work is maximised.
  • There is a cold and heated reservoir, greater the difference in temperatures greater the efficiency. As thermal energy isn't lost, no energy is wasted so temperature difference doesn't decrease so efficiency remains high.
 
  • Informative
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lee123456789 said:
comparing otto vs diesel in heat engine, if deisel has higher thermal efficiency and work done would that mean it has high mechanical efficiency.
If you are comparing two real engines, thermal and mechanical efficiencies are not directly related.
Thermal efficiency means that the machine produces more mechanical work from the same thermal potential of the fuel, or that it is able to obtain more energy from it by inducing higher differentials of pressure and temperature (that is the Diesel type of engine in this comparison).

How much of that generated mechanical work is useful and how much is wasted in form of friction, etc., is the meaning of mechanical efficiency.
At least in theory, since the Diesel engine is subjected to higher combustion forces and its more robust reciprocating parts have more inertia to the cycling accelerations, losses due to friction should be higher than those in an Otto engine of identical dimmensions and rpm's.
 

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