Revisiting the lesson of the Relativity of Simultaneity

Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the "relativity of simultaneity," illustrating how two observers in different positions can perceive the sequence of events differently, even when stationary. The participants argue that Einstein's thought experiment, which suggests that motion affects the perception of time, actually hinges more on the relative positions of observers and events rather than their motion. They emphasize that the concept of simultaneity is influenced by the propagation speed of light and the observers' distances from the events. Ultimately, the conversation concludes that the distinction between "temporal sequence" and "time" is crucial, with the former being scientifically scrutinizable and the latter remaining a philosophical inquiry.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of Einstein's theory of special relativity
  • Familiarity with the concept of simultaneity in physics
  • Knowledge of light propagation and its implications in relativity
  • Basic grasp of Lorentz transformations and their significance
NEXT STEPS
  • Explore Einstein's thought experiments in detail, particularly regarding simultaneity
  • Study the implications of Lorentz symmetry in physics
  • Investigate the philosophical interpretations of time, including Kant's perspective
  • Learn about the experimental validations of special relativity and simultaneity
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, philosophy students, and anyone interested in the nuances of time perception and the implications of special relativity in both scientific and philosophical contexts.

  • #31
Aether said:
In a Michelson interferometer, since a split beam travels round-trip along two orthogonal arms before being compared, normally only differential accelerations between the two arms would be an issue.
But your definition of wavenumber isotropy only works if we include some assumption about the two arms having the same length, and if we want to do that without referring to coordinate distance, it seems like we'd have to talk about taking a single arm and rotating it. I suppose we might also define length in terms of some physical feature like multiples of the distance between atoms in a diamond placed alongside each arm.
JesseM said:
No, but it's built into GR that it reduces to SR locally, meaning that as you zoom in on a smaller and smaller region of spacetime, the error in using the SR laws to make predictions in that region alone will go to zero.
Aether said:
It's the same for any flat coordinate system that you may choose though, not just for inertial coordinate systems.
What is the same? It's certainly not true that in any flat coordinate system in spacetime, the laws of physics in that coordinate system (written in non-tensor form) will be the same as those in inertial frames in SR.
Aether said:
Generally covariant laws of physics have all of the same physical features as any laws of physics which can be derived from them to describe spacetime using a family of inertial coordinate systems.
Sure, but I think some of these "physical features" may only definable be translating the equations into a non-tensor form in some physically-constructed coordinate system. For example, I don't think it's possible to explain what it means to say that GR is locally Lorentz-invariant without actually showing that in a local region, if you translate the tensor equations of GR into their non-tensor form in the family of local inertial coordinate systems defined by the Lorentz transform, the non-tensor form of the equations will be the same in all these coordinate systems.
Aether said:
So this is one way to test whether some feature of a coordinate-dependent law is really physical or partly mathematical.

Start with some generally covariant laws of physics, and then choose some arbitrary coordinate system to describe spacetime. Will the resulting coordinate-dependent law of physics always be Lorentz invariant?
And you think you can decide if it's Lorentz-invariant without transforming from your arbitrary coordinate system to the family of inertial coordinate systems given by the Lorentz transformation? How would you do that?
Aether said:
I agree that any feature that is inherited by all coordinate systems might be a real physical feature, but if Lorentz invariance is unique to inertial coordinate systems then it only represents one of many possible ways to cover a real physical feature with coordinates.
It isn't unique to inertial coordinate systems. If you are using some non-inertial coordinate system, you can still say that the laws of physics are Lorentz-invariant if it's true that, were you to transform the equations in your system to the family of inertial frames given by the Lorentz transform, the resulting equations would be identical for every member of this family. The statement "the laws of physics are Lorentz-invariant" describes a physical feature of the world which is true for everyone, it doesn't depend on whether you are moving inertially, or on what coordinate system you actually choose to use when approaching problems.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
1K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
3K
  • · Replies 116 ·
4
Replies
116
Views
9K
  • · Replies 52 ·
2
Replies
52
Views
7K