Richard Dawkins Going After Faith Healers

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Richard Dawkins is challenging the existence of supernatural phenomena, seeking evidence for non-physical entities, and has yet to receive a response to his inquiry. The discussion highlights skepticism towards faith healing and other pseudosciences, emphasizing that claims of alternative knowledge must still meet the burden of evidence. Critics argue that many believers are unlikely to change their views, as their beliefs often stem from a strong placebo effect rather than scientific validation. The conversation also touches on the complexities of consciousness, with some asserting that while it may exist, it does not necessarily validate the existence of other non-physical entities. Overall, the debate underscores the ongoing tension between rationalism and belief in the supernatural.
  • #31
It airs next Monday, would a bit of a summary of the program be useful for those of you over the pond (and elsewhere)?

I'm not sure how much I can remember, but i'll give it a go when I get home.
 
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  • #32
Oh yes. I certainly would like to read about it. You can be as detailed or as brief as you want.

Zz.
 
  • #33
Official Channel 4 Website:

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/E/enemies_of_reason/index.html

Here are some early newspaper reviews and reactions of The Enemies of Reason:

The gullible age
New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'
Charlie Brooker's screen burn
Unreasonably superstitious
Richard Dawkins and the New Age fakers
http://www.postchronicle.com/news/breakingnews/article_21296011.shtml
Hampshire psychic locks horns with scientist on TV

Video interview with Richard Dawkins (with clips from EoR):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1964171996506271039&q=the+enemies+of+reason+-youtube&total=221&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
 
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  • #34
I've read most of them. I find that most of the reviews seems to have a common theme: The public isn't that gullible to actually seriously accept these crackpots. Yet none of them actually cited any statistics to back it up. A few of the authors brush aside the significance of questioning people about their belief in astrology, because they think that the public realize that astrology is simply "entertainment". This is not true.

In one of the latest http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind04/c7/c7s2.htm#c7s2l2, there was a study done in Europe about astrology and asked the public if they think it was "scientific".

Belief in pseudoscience is relatively widespread.[32] For example, at least a quarter of the U.S. population believes in astrology, i.e., that the position of the stars and planets can affect people's lives. Although the majority (56 percent) of those queried in the 2001 NSF survey said that astrology is "not at all scientific," 9 percent said it is "very scientific" and 31 percent thought it is "sort of scientific" (figure 7-8 figure and appendix table 7-5 Microsoft Excel icon).

Belief in astrology is more prevalent in Europe, where 53 percent of those surveyed thought it is "rather scientific" and only a minority (39 percent) said it is not at all scientific (European Commission 2001). Europeans were more likely to say that astrology is scientific than to say the same about economics: only 42 percent of those surveyed thought that economics was scientific. Disciplines most likely to be considered scientific by Europeans were medicine (93 percent), physics (90 percent), biology (88 percent), astronomy (78 percent), mathematics (72 percent), and psychology (65 percent). History (33 percent) was at the bottom of the list. (Comparable U.S. data on the various disciplines do not exist.)

So while it may be obvious to most of these reviewers that astrology is quackery, it isn't to a large portion of the public. So Dawkins attack on it, and even his ridicule of it is well justified.

Zz.
 
  • #35
I completely agree, many people take this stuff seriously, even well educated people.

These aren't in order but these are things that were in the show:

1. Discussion of astrology, classic experiment with 20 random people and a random horoscope, around 1/2 believed that the horoscope was true for them. Talks to some astology professor or something (can't remember what the guy's job actually was), asks some awkward questions and gets the guy to hint that he doesn't really believe in it. Compares astrology to astronomy and asks people to go out into the country and look into the vastness of space, or go to an observatory.

2. Segment on dowsing, some professor of psychology (i think!) testing dowsers with bottles filled with sand/water in a double blind experiment, dowsers perform no better than chance. Short interviews with some dowsers who give excuses for why they couldn't perform. Pretty much echoes other experiments by skeptic societies. Has a nice little bit in here about why the double blind is such a magnificent technique.

3. Psychics and cold reading. He's at a psychic/alternative therapy/whatever conference, and sits down with a guy who gets him to select cards, guy guesses at some things until he hits on something that is recognised by Richard and goes on about that. Richard asks him to explain the other things he said that he didnt recognise, lots of excuses. Little segment with Derren Brown about how cold reading is used, how to recognise it etc (Derren seems a little nervous here, no idea why). Richard attends a spiritualist church meeting led by someone who claims to be able to get messages from the "other side". We see a lot of the exact same things that Derren describes with cold reading. The psychic guy makes a few blunders, probably quite a bit of editing in this section. Richard interviews him afterwards and asks him if he really believes in this stuff. Psychic guy says yes. *pan* *hilarious Dawkins face* *laughter*

4. a REALLY NICE section on the discovery of echolocation in bats (at the time, sonar was a top secret military technology), how the initial experiment was disagreed with in the scientific community, then as more scientists tested it, it was found to be true. Great example of science in action. I liked this bit :)

5. He also attends some kind of meeting with the editor of resurgence. I don't really remember much of this bit, The guy made some crazy claims though.

These are the bits that I remember best. Throughout the programme he keeps reiterating the point that these practices are not studied by science because they have no reason behind them, and how we cannot progress if we continue down this path.

I believe he managed to get across what he meant to, that reason is precious and is somethign that we all can and should use in our every day lives.

I'm certain I've missed some of the stuff in this program, it was an hour packed to the brim.

I'll keep tuned for next week's :)
 
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  • #36
I've always felt that astrology could have some small truth, if only for the simple fact that its basically monthly groupings of what time of year people were born in.
I wish there was a way to see, but I could believe that there's either a trend in personalities, or a trend in the difference between personalities when comparing someone born in the cold of winter and someone in the heat of summer.
Maybe your first developmental memories would be biased depending on whether you're inside with your parents 24 hours a day or outside with them most of the day in the sun.

Of course this could be completely drowned out by the methods of parenting, as well as not-applicable in areas with little to no season change.
What do you guys think? Possible?
(PS I hate astrology)
 
  • #37
TestUser12 said:
I completely agree, many people take this stuff seriously, even well educated people.

These aren't in order but these are things that were in the show:

1. Discussion of astrology, classic experiment with 20 random people and a random horoscope, around 1/2 believed that the horoscope was true for them. Talks to some astology professor or something (can't remember what the guy's job actually was), asks some awkward questions and gets the guy to hint that he doesn't really believe in it. Compares astrology to astronomy and asks people to go out into the country and look into the vastness of space, or go to an observatory.

2. Segment on dowsing, some professor of psychology (i think!) testing dowsers with bottles filled with sand/water in a double blind experiment, dowsers perform no better than chance. Short interviews with some dowsers who give excuses for why they couldn't perform. Pretty much echoes other experiments by skeptic societies. Has a nice little bit in here about why the double blind is such a magnificent technique.

3. Psychics and cold reading. He's at a psychic/alternative therapy/whatever conference, and sits down with a guy who gets him to select cards, guy guesses at some things until he hits on something that is recognised by Richard and goes on about that. Richard asks him to explain the other things he said that he didnt recognise, lots of excuses. Little segment with Derren Brown about how cold reading is used, how to recognise it etc (Derren seems a little nervous here, no idea why). Richard attends a spiritualist church meeting led by someone who claims to be able to get messages from the "other side". We see a lot of the exact same things that Derren describes with cold reading. The psychic guy makes a few blunders, probably quite a bit of editing in this section. Richard interviews him afterwards and asks him if he really believes in this stuff. Psychic guy says yes. *pan* *hilarious Dawkins face* *laughter*

4. a REALLY NICE section on the discovery of echolocation in bats (at the time, sonar was a top secret military technology), how the initial experiment was disagreed with in the scientific community, then as more scientists tested it, it was found to be true. Great example of science in action. I liked this bit :)

5. He also attends some kind of meeting with the editor of resurgence. I don't really remember much of this bit, The guy made some crazy claims though.

These are the bits that I remember best. Throughout the programme he keeps reiterating the point that these practices are not studied by science because they have no reason behind them, and how we cannot progress if we continue down this path.

I believe he managed to get across what he meant to, that reason is precious and is somethign that we all can and should use in our every day lives.

I'm certain I've missed some of the stuff in this program, it was an hour packed to the brim.

I'll keep tuned for next week's :)

Again, thanks very much. For those of us who haven't had the chance to view the program, this is the best we have right now.

Zz.
 
  • #38
ZapperZ said:
In one of the latest http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind04/c7/c7s2.htm#c7s2l2, there was a study done in Europe about astrology and asked the public if they think it was "scientific".

...

So while it may be obvious to most of these reviewers that astrology is quackery, it isn't to a large portion of the public. So Dawkins attack on it, and even his ridicule of it is well justified.

Zz.

And I wonder what percentage of those participating in the survey were confusing astrology with astronomy.
 
  • #40
Ah Youtube, what a wonderful resource of clips with questionable legality.
 
  • #41
There are a few problems with his approach. First of all, the test is to see if subjective interpretations of astrological predictions yield satisfying results. This seems fatally flawed because there is no guarantee that people would be any more accurate if some were given an accurate psychological profile. Yes, the point is partly to show how people are easily fooled, but this doesn't rule out any potentially valid results. A fair test would be to use a number of psychological tests and see how well those agree first with each other, and then compare the common results of those to the astrological predictions. Also, I can’t help but wonder if different and exhaustive personality tests would agree with each other any more than they would the astrological results. Is it possible that psychology would fair no better than astrologers? And I am asking as I have no idea, but I have seen a lot of hype about personality tests passed around the corporate world, and some of it seems like complete bunk. Next, I would tend to look to personality traits as opposed to daily charts as these are two completely separate issues. It would make sense to look at the most general case first, and not to mix that up with the daily fortune telling.

The other problem that I see is that people on both sides of the debate assume that any apparent connection between the motions of the planets and the personalities of people, must be one of cause and effect [well, the astrologer wouldn’t really say anything]. But if we assume for a moment that there might be something to all of this, then it is reasonable to consider that the planets might simply be coincidental time keepers for deeply rooted natural cycles here on earth. Given enough celestial bodies, periods, and complex motions, there are bound to be coincidental alignments between these and other unrelated cycles in nature. In other words, we don't demand that clocks and human hearts are deeply connected somehow just because the tick rates might coincide for some people, but they could coincide nonetheless. It seems conceivable to me that such an assumption might be the true basis for astrology. From there, any genuine relationships get lost in the hyperbole.

I have no reason to believe in astrology, but these seem like valid objections to me.
 
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  • #42
The point is to show that astrological predictions coincide with the real state only as much as people making stuff up coincides with the real state.

Whether scientific personality testing coincides with the real state any more than people making stuff up does is a different issue.

The astrological reading for 1/12 of the population actually applied to 1/2 of the population. I believe that this is a powerful result.
It would be interesting to see how much of that 1/2 is in the 1/12 that the reading was meant for, though. I suspect that the result would show no preference for star sign if you split it up this way.
 
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  • #43
The refutation of the first argument is to compare two astrological horoscopes for the same star sign made by different astrologers during the same period, or several and see how massively they differ. If they are as accurate as they claim, there would little difference. At least none that are openly contradictory.

I agree that astrology is about confirmation bias, but I think that was stated in the clip?
 
  • #44
Richard dawkins seems more "scared" about what he doesn't know. There are faith healers that are just crooks who are there to make money and fame. there are others who do that because they care.. just like our doctors.

its amazing how similar the thinking of the church and the atheists is. When they didnt understand something, the called "foul"! Church called it "heresy" and people like dawkins call it "enemies" and "crooks". Both are guilty of ignorance.

TEST FOR YOURSELF! NEITHER DAWKINS nor THE FAITH HEALERS is authentic unless you test it out for yourself. Mother Evolution gave Dawkins and us similar brains. Unfortunately, one is misusing it, while many others are not using it.

My 2 cents.

DJ
 
  • #45
Ivan Seeking said:
There are a few problems with his approach. First of all, the test is to see if subjective interpretations of astrological predictions yield satisfying results. This seems fatally flawed because there is no guarantee that people would be any more accurate if some were given an accurate psychological profile. Yes, the point is partly to show how people are easily fooled, but this doesn't rule out any potentially valid results. A fair test would be to use a number of psychological tests and see how well those agree first with each other, and then compare the common results of those to the astrological predictions. Also, I can’t help but wonder if different and exhaustive personality tests would agree with each other any more than they would the astrological results. Is it possible that psychology would fair no better than astrologers? And I am asking as I have no idea, but I have seen a lot of hype about personality tests passed around the corporate world, and some of it seems like complete bunk. Next, I would tend to look to personality traits as opposed to daily charts as these are two completely separate issues. It would make sense to look at the most general case first, and not to mix that up with the daily fortune telling.

But Ivan, you're using one of the most common trick of attacking the debunking of it, by saying that something else could also be equally faulty and thus, it can't be all that bad. I do not believe that this has addressed any degree of credibility of astrology.

The other problem that I see is that people on both sides of the debate assume that any apparent connection between the motions of the planets and the personalities of people, must be one of cause and effect [well, the astrologer wouldn’t really say anything]. But if we assume for a moment that there might be something to all of this, then it is reasonable to consider that the planets might simply be coincidental time keepers for deeply rooted natural cycles here on earth. Given enough celestial bodies, periods, and complex motions, there are bound to be coincidental alignments between these and other unrelated cycles in nature. In other words, we don't demand that clocks and human hearts are deeply connected somehow just because the tick rates might coincide for some people, but they could coincide nonetheless. It seems conceivable to me that such an assumption might be the true basis for astrology. From there, any genuine relationships get lost in the hyperbole.

I have no reason to believe in astrology, but these seem like valid objections to me.

I don't think it is simply because the "mechanism" that you are proposing has never been supported by anything. It is bad enough that something stronger and closer to us such as EM radiation hasn't had any convincing evidence that it affects our health. Now you are introducing planetary effects where, even their gravitational influence would be extraordinarily miniscule. And since we're making assumption that they are right, I would also say that if we are accepting the influence of these planets via their gravity, then I'd say that this is all washed by the moon that exerts a stronger influence than any of them put together.

But again, this is all moot considering that the mechanism that cause one onto the other doesn't exist. And we haven't gotten yet to the point where someone actually present any credible data of the validity of any of the predictions - assuming that they could make a specific enough prediction rather than some generic one that even *I* could come up with.

Zz.
 
  • #46
d_jnaneswar said:
Richard dawkins seems more "scared" about what he doesn't know. There are faith healers that are just crooks who are there to make money and fame. there are others who do that because they care.. just like our doctors.

its amazing how similar the thinking of the church and the atheists is. When they didnt understand something, the called "foul"! Church called it "heresy" and people like dawkins call it "enemies" and "crooks". Both are guilty of ignorance.

TEST FOR YOURSELF! NEITHER DAWKINS nor THE FAITH HEALERS is authentic unless you test it out for yourself. Mother Evolution gave Dawkins and us similar brains. Unfortunately, one is misusing it, while many others are not using it.

My 2 cents.

DJ

Huh? It appears that it is you who didn't understand anything. Faith healers HAVE been studied, and in fact, have been challenged to show their validity by careful testing. Now keep in mind that claims of faith healing have been going on for ages! I will go back to Bob Park's list of one of the signs of crackpottery in which, even after a lengthy period of time, the degree of certainty of the existence of something is still being debated, and that no valid evidence has been produced to show that that phenomenon exists.

Now, compare the claim of faith healers to, say, the claim made by Kamerlingh Onnes of the discovery of superconductivity. Study how the former is STILL, after all these years, on first base trying to establish its existence, while the latter not only has a well-formed formulation and mechanism, but also has been applied to do other things.

So no, it has nothing to do with not understanding. Dawkins is a reputable scientist in the first place and is well-aware of all the lack of evidence that accompanies these pseudoscience. In fact, if you read his comment in my blog, he puts out a challenge for anyone to cite these "non-physical" phenomenon that actually have credible evidence to prove him wrong.

Zz.
 
  • #47
I have a notepad for the next episode! :D
 
  • #48
its amazing how similar the thinking of the church and the atheists is. When they didnt understand something, the called "foul"! Church called it "heresy" and people like dawkins call it "enemies" and "crooks". Both are guilty of ignorance.

We know how faith healing and astrology (appears to) works. Confirmation bias, placebo effect and the human instinct to recognize patterns. These are well-supported, scientific explanations. If a person wants to claim otherwise, he or she would need to present evidence for his or her claim (and later methodology/epistemology). Even if it is 'outside' of reason, science and observation, he or she still has the burden of evidence to show why the claim is at all relevant.

With the available information, I think that confirmation bias and the recognition of patterns is a more reasonable explanation than undiscovered mystical forces.
 
  • #49
Moridin said:
We know how faith healing and astrology (appears to) works. Confirmation bias, placebo effect and the human instinct to recognize patterns. These are well-supported, scientific explanations. If a person wants to claim otherwise, he or she would need to present evidence for his or her claim (and later methodology/epistemology). Even if it is 'outside' of reason, science and observation, he or she still has the burden of evidence to show why the claim is at all relevant.

With the available information, I think that confirmation bias and the recognition of patterns is a more reasonable explanation than undiscovered mystical forces.

There is also the element of chance, especially when doing pattern recognition. This is something that even in science, we have to be vigilant about, that by chance, we got what we were looking for. That is why there has to be a statistical analysis of the data, and the phenomenon must have a signal way above the "background noise" or random data fluctuation for it to be considered as a candidate for validity. In high energy physics, events are categorize by their "sigma", and usually "5-sigma events" are the ones people will even begin to consider as valid. This is the start of making sure that such a thing occurs not due to some coincidence or random chance.

Zz.
 
  • #50
Thank you for explaining it.

Zz, http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22Richard+Dawkins+-+The+Enemies+of+Reason+%28part+1%29%22 link might be interesting for you to check out.
 
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  • #51
Thanks. I'll post this on my blog as well! :)

Zz.
 
  • #52
25:13 into it, that's the face. ahhahahaha. I love him.
 
  • #53
ZapperZ said:
But Ivan, you're using one of the most common trick of attacking the debunking of it, by saying that something else could also be equally faulty and thus, it can't be all that bad. I do not believe that this has addressed any degree of credibility of astrology.

The point was that I have never seen a qualified test of astrology, in spite of all of the debunking. The most common approach is to show that people make bad subjective interpretations, which is a test of the people but not of the claim. If the debunkers really wanted to explore this and determine if there could be any validity to it, they would devise a reasonable test, but I have never seen it done. I can't help but wonder if this is because psychology would do no better; ie. we have no reliable way to test the claims.

This speaks to your second point as well. I have never seen a credible test of astrology, so I don't know if there might be anything to it.
 
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  • #54
Ivan Seeking said:
The point was that I have never seen a qualified test of astrology, in spite of all of the debunking. The most common approach is to show that people make bad subjective interpretations. If the debunkers really wanted to explore this and determine if there could be any validity to it, they would devise a reasonable test, but I have never seen it done.

This speaks to your second point as well. I have never seen a credible test of astrology, so I don't know if there might be anything to it.

But don't you think it is rather strange that the burden of "proof" in your scheme here seems to lie not with those who claim it is valid, but those who claim it isn't? I've never seen a qualified test of astrology that claim that it works either. And as far as I know, usually it is those who claim such a thing that have to prove its validity.

Zz.
 
  • #55
If science has no valid means to test a claim, how can the burden of proof be dumped on laymen? Granted, their's is a statement of faith, but the debunking is pretty much worthless from what I can see. And I don't mean just here, but in every debunking of it that I've seen.
 
  • #56
Ivan Seeking said:
If science has no valid means to test a claim, how can the burden of proof be dumped on laymen? Granted, their's is a statement of faith, but the debunking is pretty much worthless from what I can see. And I don't mean just here, but in every debunking of it that I've seen.

There are many things in which science has no means to test a claim, because these things are unfalsifiable. It is not the fault of science. But the public, however, needs to understand that, which is these claims simply have no validity that can be shown and proven. The burden of proof still lies with those who made the claim that these things are real, just like the rest of us when we make our claim. Why would they be any different or special?

Secondly, since when has none of these things been tested? Psychic abilities etc. have been the subject of testing for many years, with nary a well-document evidence. If there is, we'd all won't be talking about its validity Bob Park even highlighted a test done by a high school girl that clearly debunked one of these things and even got published in a reputable journal. So no, I disagree that there are no aspect of any of such pseudoscience that has been tested rigorously.

Zz.
 
  • #57
well,

the burdain of evidence. Evidence can be provided, only if the available science grows up to it.

Heres something I would like to say.

Faith healing, does it work? Absolutely.
All faith healers true? Absolutely not.
How do you know it works? I have seen it.

How did you see it?
Like this. I have seen this man with a tumor on his leg, full of puss and with bandages. he comes to a holy man I know of and asks for curing it. The holy man doesn't budge for a long time. He is one of those recluse kind of guys who doesn't bother with what they make in terms of money. There are many such in India. They don't bother with money or fame, they neither have home nor have job, they live by eating what ever they come across that particular day, most of them don't even talk usually and keep silent and meditative. This is one such guy. So, this guy, this holyman, after some prayers by the sick guy looks at him and says, get me a glass of water.

The sick fellow limps off to the corner of the shed and gets the holy man a glass of water. The holy man drinks it and again keeps silent. After a few minutes, this sick guy realizes that his leg doesn't hurt anymore. He checks out and sees that his bandage is hanging loose and sees that there's no trace of the tumor! he thanks the holy man sitting there and then goes away. I was still sitting in the holy man's presence. After a few minutes, the holy man changes posture, and now i can see his leg and it has the same exact tumor which was not there before when I gave a massage to his legs!

This happened in front of my eyes. I am not a person of blind belief. I look at myself as a guy who searches for explanations. Either in science or otherwise. But this happened at around 11 AM, i was not sleepy nor drowsy, i don't take any intoxicants ever, it was right before me! The same exact tumor! the shape was also unmistakable!

Now, how can I prove that it can happen?
Two ways. One, if the holy man decides to show off and he succeeds or if I can do it in a lab and show that it is possible.
Two, If I can provide a logical basis, a tentative deduction of rational thinking that supports such claims.
The second one is not quite possible, because the logical basis for it is not "found" by science yet, that consciousness is all pervading and that a tune up with that conscious level can enable a man to perform the seemingly super-natural feets. They are not supernatural at all, but are parts of nature's mechanisms, but for this, science needs to grow.

In that case, again, we all have two ways to go.
We can say "the heck with it. I won't believe it until science catches up".
or we can say "may be.. may be not.. I will try and find out myself and make my mind about it."

eitherway, the ugly face of it that we see in the commercialization of faith healing (in evangelism and other ways) must be fought and the correct version must be sought.

Now, with in the above framework, I would be glad if anyone can point me to a methodology that I can use to prove it.

I have a similar experience with astrology, but not as emphatic as this one is.

I was studying astrology (Vedic Astrology -- called "Jyotisha" meaning "lighting up"), a basic study. My teacher is a young guy, quite un-assuming guy who was open that he himself was not at adept and that astrology itself can't accurately predict anything, but its combination with other sciences like palmistry and with mental abilities of intuition can greatly increase the chances. He was teaching at around 3 pm in the afternoon and in the middle of the class, while explaining certain configuration of stars and planets, he said, "this config will occur at around 4 PM. It should drizzle at that time most probably. It happens 75 percent of the time. It rains atleast a little everytime this configuration occurs in the sky" and then he went on with his class. We were absorbed in the class when suddenly it started raining! He looked at the watch and said "See? Its 4.05!" And then we realized how accurate his prediction was.

it was a sunny day, not a cloudy one. Its India and it doesn't rain much in these parts. It might, but not so predictably.

It happened three more times confirming its validity TO ME.

This one is more provable. One can look up the configuration and see if it will rain more than 70 percent of the time and see if it happens. I will try and find out exactly when it happens, say in the city I stay (prediction vary based on longitudes and lattitudes) and some other cities. I am in the process of doing it.

Now what can science say about this? Not a peanut!

DJ
 
  • #58
Then what are you waiting for? James Randi has $1 million waiting to award to you!

Again, as I've illustrated, most people have no clue on the difference between anecdotal evidence and actual, scientific evidence. This is one clear example.

Zz.
 
  • #59
Was that anecdotal evidence? Yes.
Can meteorologists do it? Probably, but with certain error bars.
How do I know? Because the evidence says so.

Generally, science can damage supernaturalism in two ways:

- Come up with an experiment that falsifies the idea (if it turns out that it is indeed a natural causality).
- Replace the supernatural explanation with a natural one and explain the natural origin of said supernatural belief (such as rain dance, the Sand Man and so on). Of course, this does not in any way disprove the supernatural idea, but it does make it obsolete.

If science has no valid means to test a claim, how can the burden of proof be dumped on laymen? Granted, their's is a statement of faith, but the debunking is pretty much worthless from what I can see. And I don't mean just here, but in every debunking of it that I've seen.

It does not matter if the claim can be tested by science, is outside science, reason or logic or what have you. The burden of proof/evidence is still on the one making the assertion to show why it is relevant, by which ever means is applicable.

On another subject, this was only briefly addressed at the very end, probably a build-in trailer for the second part. It was the clip with that funny postmodern relativist. Their basic claim is that science is orthodox and that the evidence might support one idea for one person and another idea for another person, thus attempting, in a way, to reduce science to an arbitrary social construction. I do hope this will be debunked in the second part.

I have a few objections to their claims.

1. If science is an arbitrary social construction, how come it has been enormously successful in such areas as medicine, technology and so on, whereas voodoo, astrology and so on has not shown any progress at all if we look at the advancement of society? This is where the relativistic distortion falls to it knees. This argument is generally enough to debunk their claims, but why stop when you are having fun? :biggrin:

2. Science knows that cognitive biases exists and attempts to remove or limit them by double blind studies, peer-review and a valid method of self-correction (doing more tests), whereas voodoo, astrology and so on does not.

3. Certain aspects of science is hard-wired into our genes. Indeed, this can be demonstrated by babies, how and by which means they explore the world around them.

4. Lack of testability, repeatability, falsifiability, evidence, methodology and epistemology for pseudoscience. These are valid obstacles and they are welcome to try and overcome them (by logic or otherwise). They have not done it so far.

I may have over interpreted his stance. Oh well.
 
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  • #60
The social relativists as advocated by some postmodernists have been thoroughly debunked by Alan Sokal. In fact, many aspects of postmodernism suffered a severe blow of respectability when Sokal pulled off his hoax in Social Text. It revealed that these people were adapting physics concepts with very little knowledge beyond a superficial understanding of what they are, i.e. they were using something based on ignorance.

Zz.
 

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