Rookie Energy Query: Mass Outflow in Supernovas

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the energy outflow from a supernova event, specifically focusing on the relativistic speeds at which mass is ejected and how energy is perceived in different inertial reference frames. Participants explore the implications of relativistic physics on energy calculations and the concept of Lorentz invariance.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the energy outflow from a supernova, calculated in the star's rest frame, would be the same in all inertial reference frames.
  • Another participant provides equations from relativity to calculate total energy, suggesting that energy is frame-dependent and that conservation of energy does not imply identical energy values across frames.
  • A later reply clarifies that while energy and momentum can differ between frames, the relationship between them remains constant.
  • One participant introduces a supplementary question about the Lorentz invariance of divergence, specifically regarding the total amount of matter crossing a spherical shell around the star.
  • Responses affirm the idea that the divergence is indeed Lorentz invariant, with a participant noting the scalar nature of mass and its implications for transformations.
  • Another participant argues against the assumption that total energy remains the same across frames, using a Newtonian mechanics example to illustrate that total energy can vary with different velocities in different frames.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the invariance of energy across reference frames, with some asserting that energy is frame-dependent while others challenge this notion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these differing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference both relativistic and classical mechanics, indicating that the discussion encompasses foundational principles that may not be universally agreed upon. The nuances of energy calculations and transformations are highlighted, suggesting a need for careful consideration of definitions and assumptions.

mooneyes
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I am a little unsure about something, take this example for instance:

In a supernova event, a star ejects X amount of mass at a relativistic speed, say 0.5c. What's the total energy of this outflow in the reference frame in which the star's at rest.

Now would I be correct to assume that the energy outflow would be the same in all inertial reference frames?

Thanks.
 
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mooneyes said:
I am a little unsure about something, take this example for instance:

In a supernova event, a star ejects X amount of mass at a relativistic speed, say 0.5c. What's the total energy of this outflow in the reference frame in which the star's at rest.
In relativity total energy can be determined from either E = \frac{m_0 c^2}{\sqrt{1 - v^2/c^2}} or the equivalent equation E^2 = m_0^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2 where m0 is the rest mass and p is the relativistic momentum \frac{mv}{\sqrt{1 - v^2/c^2}}. So using the first equation, if m0 = X and v = 0.5c, then the total energy would be 1.1547*X*c2.
mooneyes said:
Now would I be correct to assume that the energy outflow would be the same in all inertial reference frames?
No, conservation of energy just means that in any given frame the total energy doesn't change with time, but the total energy (like the total momentum) is different in different frames. This is true in classical physics as well as relativity.
 
JesseM said:
No, conservation of energy just means that in any given frame the total energy doesn't change with time, but the total energy (like the total momentum) is different in different frames. This is true in classical physics as well as relativity.

Ah, I see, so

E2 - (Pc)2 = constant

for any inertial frame, but the energy and momentum can be different!
 
I have a supplementary question : Is the divergence Lorentz invariant ? That would be the total amount of matter crossing a spherical shell around the star, integrated over some time period ( I think ).
 
It is indeed!
 
mooneyes said:
It is indeed!

Thanks. I suppose (naively ?) with the amount of matter being a scalar, that the velocity and time transformations cancel. I'll look it up.
 
The answer is no, even in Newtonian mechanics. Suppose I use my two hands to throw two masses m with velocities +v and -v. The total energy is mv^2. In a different frame, the total energy is not mv^2.
 

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