Root Finding Exercise - Finding Value for Equivalent Areas

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a root finding exercise related to designing a fountain that sprays water in a hyperbolic shape. Participants are exploring how to determine an unknown parameter that will make the areas of two parabolic shapes equivalent, with one area being derived from given parameters and the other needing calculation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the fountain design and the need to find conditions for equivalent areas of two parabolas, with one parameter unknown.
  • Another participant questions the terminology used, suggesting that the term "parabola" may be more appropriate than "hyperbola" in this context.
  • A participant provides a specific example of a downward-opening parabola and discusses its area, suggesting that this concept might be applicable to the fountain design.
  • There is mention of using root finding methods such as bisection or Newton-Raphson to solve for the unknown parameter.
  • One participant expresses difficulty in providing specific advice due to the vagueness of the problem description.
  • Another participant suggests a trial-and-error approach to find bounds for the unknown parameter, leading to a classic bisection problem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the terminology (hyperbola vs. parabola) and the specifics of the problem remain somewhat vague, indicating that multiple competing views and approaches are present.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the behavior of the areas as parameters change, and the specific mathematical steps for applying the root finding methods are not fully detailed.

architenginee
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How to find value in root finding exercise?
I am designing a fountain for a Vegas hotel which sprays water in the shape of a hyperbola onto a screen. The hyperbolas shape is a function of several different variables. I am looking for conditions which will cause the area cast by the bottom and top parabolas to be equivalent. The parameters for the bottom shape are given, while those for the top are also given with the exception of 1 value. How do I compute the value of this unknown by root finding.

My notes up to now:

-compute area of bottom with given info
-area of top = area of bottom
- ...??

...I have a program which integrates the area with given input...but I am stuck
 
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Imagine two nozzles with different parameters such as, nozzle area, pressure, density of medium, etc...these are just arbitrary examples to help give perspective to the problem at hand...
0 seconds ago
 
architenginee said:
How to find value in root finding exercise?
I am designing a fountain for a Vegas hotel which sprays water in the shape of a hyperbola onto a screen.
Hyperbola or parabola? You are using both terms here.
architenginee said:
The hyperbolas shape is a function of several different variables. I am looking for conditions which will cause the area cast by the bottom and top parabolas to be equivalent. The parameters for the bottom shape are given, while those for the top are also given with the exception of 1 value. How do I compute the value of this unknown by root finding.

My notes up to now:

-compute area of bottom with given info
-area of top = area of bottom
- ...??

...I have a program which integrates the area with given input...but I am stuck

I'm going to assume you meant parabola, not hyperbola. The equation y = 2x - x2 is a parabola that opens downward, and whose vertex is at (1, 1) and whose x-intercepts are at (0, 0) and (2, 0). It can be shown that the area between the parabola and the x-axis is 2/3.

If you reflect this parabola across the x-axis, you get a new parabola with equation y = -2x + x2. The x-intercepts are still at (0, 0) and (2, 0), but now the vertex is at (1, -1). The area between this parabola and the x-axis is also 2/3.

Seems like you might be able to use this idea in your fountain.
 
Mark44 said:
Hyperbola or parabola? You are using both terms here.

I'm going to assume you meant parabola, not hyperbola. The equation y = 2x - x2 is a parabola that opens downward, and whose vertex is at (1, 1) and whose x-intercepts are at (0, 0) and (2, 0). It can be shown that the area between the parabola and the x-axis is 2/3.

If you reflect this parabola across the x-axis, you get a new parabola with equation y = -2x + x2. The x-intercepts are still at (0, 0) and (2, 0), but now the vertex is at (1, -1). The area between this parabola and the x-axis is also 2/3.

Seems like you might be able to use this idea in your fountain.

I have found how to compute the area. The issue at hand is how to go about solving for the missing parameter by root finding method. (bisection/Newton-raphson, etc)
 
Your description of what you're trying to do is too vague for me to be able to give any specific advice.
 
architenginee said:
My notes up to now:

-compute area of bottom with given info
-area of top = area of bottom
- ...??

Assuming the area monotonically increases, or decreases,
By trial and error find one value of the unknown parameter so the resulting area is too small and a second value of the unknown parameter so the resulting area is too large. Then consider area of lower-area of upper and you want to find where that function is zero.

Now you have a classic "bisection" problem.
Read this and think how you can apply that to your task.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisection_method
 

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