Schwarzenegger Mulls Clemency for Williams

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the potential clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams, a convicted killer and founder of the Crips gang, who became an anti-gang activist while in prison. Participants explore the implications of granting clemency based on achievements in prison versus the original conviction, as well as the broader moral and societal implications of the death penalty.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that if an individual can contribute positively to society, justice may be better served by sparing their life.
  • Others express a general opposition to the death penalty, suggesting that it should not be applied regardless of circumstances.
  • One viewpoint suggests that clemency should only be considered if there is doubt about the original conviction, emphasizing the importance of justice for victims.
  • A participant presents a cost-benefit analysis of granting clemency, weighing public sentiment and potential impacts on crime deterrence against the benefits of allowing Williams to continue his anti-gang work.
  • Some participants reference the idea that justice should not be altered based on an individual's achievements, questioning the fairness of such a precedent.
  • There are conflicting opinions on whether granting clemency would signal to other offenders that reform could lead to leniency in severe cases.
  • Concerns are raised about the societal implications of executing Williams, including potential public unrest and riots.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the legitimacy of the death penalty, the appropriateness of clemency based on achievements, and the implications of such decisions on society and justice.

Contextual Notes

Some participants acknowledge the complexity of the issue, noting that discussions about clemency often lead back to the fundamental justifications for the death penalty itself. There is also mention of the procedural delays in the legal system that can affect clemency decisions.

  • #31
The_Professional said:
So maintaining innocence over the murders that he was convicted from makes his claim credible? thereby making him innocent? you know I have a bridge to sell you..
If he had admitted his guilt he probably would have had his sentence commuted. The fact he wouldn't admit to the murders despite the consequences suggests that perhaps he felt strongly that he was innocent of the murders. Strongly enough it seems to die rather than confess to them.
It seems there are a few folk here who don't seem to have the cop on to realize that sometimes wrong verdicts are returned and sometimes the cops even fix evidence to get a conviction. I'm sure this probably comes as a shock to some of you who live in their nice clockwork, black and white world but the justice system is less than perfect. :rolleyes:
 
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  • #32
TheStatutoryApe said:
I haven't heard of any violence since.
Does anyone know if there have been any demonstrations at all?
Thankfully, as far as I know, all has been quiet. I've heard that there is a giant memorial service being planned for next week somewhere in Los Angeles. They are expecting a turnout of about 16,000 people. This should be a peaceful event.

I heard someone on the radio this week (I think it was Bill Handel) talking about how Barbara Becnel is promising "a funeral on the scale of Rosa Parks’." That really, really made me angry. Hell, I may start rioting. Rosa Parks was a courageous woman. Williams was a cold-blooded killer. How dare she mention those two people in the same breath!:mad:
 
  • #33
America and US Media Appears to be "Nuts"

Once again, as has been raised with all the publicity over the pending death sentance fate for Tookie Williams, much of America, Hollywood, and the U.S. media has gotten it wrong. Support for sparing Williams from his ultimate punishment - initially arose as a result of his supposed "positive role model activities" while incarcerated. I mean, he was actually nominated for a Nobel Prize for his efforts. Somehow, his supporters were successful in garnishing numerous photo-ops and advocacy from major Hollywood celebrities. Yet, as his time began to draw near, opponents of the "death penalty" joined the rally to spare Tookie Williams. I didn't know Tookie, only what was provided in the news. The facts painted him as a treacherous individual - a vicious leader and criminal. The death penalty was intended for people of his character. Yes, he may have redeemed himself, but he did not do it willingly. The taxpayers of CA spent some $1M over 25 years to bring about a change in him. If only we could use those funds to save some youths before they turn into "monsters."

What I remain confused over is WHY key celebrities and media come forward with so much support in this matter. What about the innocent victims who have died at the hands of gang members? Where was this same Hollywood and media support for them? Despite anyone's opinion over the use of the death penalty, I would ASK these same celebrities and media to visit with the families affected by gang violence, the children who die everyday from horrendous diseases - and ask themselves, have we served America well - or did we LOOSE our perspective and minds over matters such as with Tookie.

American leaders and the media made a similar mistake earlier this year in the media flurries and political battles to prevent removing the feeding tube from Florida's Terri Schiavo. The poor woman had been in a horrendous condition for some 13-15 years. Yet, American leaders and the media rallied around that cause, whilst every day hundreds of Americans die in hospitals and long term care from neglect and improper care who never get but an obituary. Many such patients could be helped and possibly saved by critical medical "intervention" and the necessary financial and other support from key American leaders and the media. Is it fair for these people to have died, while Terri Schiavo, who actually was brain dead, got all the attention and the best of care? I ask has America gone "nuts?"

Both examples above send a message that America and the U.S. media has gone mad, and many may truly be "nuts." I would ask that the next time key American leaders, celebrities, and the media choose to rally in an effort to sustain the life of an American - that they choose a "person" with cimcumstances that befit the extraordinary attention.
 
  • #34
Art said:
If he had admitted his guilt he probably would have had his sentence commuted. The fact he wouldn't admit to the murders despite the consequences suggests that perhaps he felt strongly that he was innocent of the murders. Strongly enough it seems to die rather than confess to them.
Or it suggests that he didn't want to amit he was guilty.
It seems there are a few folk here who don't seem to have the cop on to realize that sometimes wrong verdicts are returned and sometimes the cops even fix evidence to get a conviction. I'm sure this probably comes as a shock to some of you who live in their nice clockwork, black and white world but the justice system is less than perfect. :rolleyes:
Without a good reason to think that, Art, it's just idle speculation. You're welcome to it, of course, but it carries no weight whatsoever. Besides - not even his lawyer tried that angle.

One thing, though - you are aware of the evidence against him, right?
 
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  • #35
Math Is Hard said:
Thankfully, as far as I know, all has been quiet. I've heard that there is a giant memorial service being planned for next week somewhere in Los Angeles. They are expecting a turnout of about 16,000 people. This should be a peaceful event.
I heard someone on the radio this week (I think it was Bill Handel) talking about how Barbara Becnel is promising "a funeral on the scale of Rosa Parks’." That really, really made me angry. Hell, I may start rioting. Rosa Parks was a courageous woman. Williams was a cold-blooded killer. How dare she mention those two people in the same breath!:mad:
She published his books.

The crimes he commited were horrendous, he was never debriefed and he never admitted to the murders. I am against the death penalty, yet I don't think Tookie deserved special consideration. But you cannot deny that his books have been a tremendous influence on inner city kids. I have heard lots of testimony from teachers who said that children who had never read any book would read Tookie's books.

How many children did not turn to crime and gangs because of his influence?

His books are still being published so he has done his best to redeem himself and now has met his maker. Any further judgement of Tookie is out of any mortal hands.

There is an underclass in this country to whom Tookie was a hero. You can see them as you drive through the cities of America. They live in the neighborhoods next to the freeways. As long as they honor his memory with a peaceful ceremony I say more power to them.

You must put it in perspective.

1. They are not honoring who he was but who he seemed to have become.

2. Funerals are for the living, the dead don't care. The ceremony is not for Tookie so much as for those whose lives he touched with his books.
 
  • #36
Skyhunter said:
She published his books.
The crimes he commited were horrendous, he was never debriefed and he never admitted to the murders. I am against the death penalty, yet I don't think Tookie deserved special consideration. But you cannot deny that his books have been a tremendous influence on inner city kids.
Actually, I can. I would like to see some concrete proof that this is the case.
Skyhunter said:
I have heard lots of testimony from teachers who said that children who had never read any book would read Tookie's books.
That is in many ways even more perverse to me. We can't get a kid to read a book unless it's written by a sensationalized gang-banging murderer?
Skyhunter said:
How many children did not turn to crime and gangs because of his influence?
That's what I would like to know.
Skyhunter said:
His books are still being published so he has done his best to redeem himself and now has met his maker. Any further judgement of Tookie is out of any mortal hands.
I completely agree. If there's any redemption for him, it's in the next world, not here.
Skyhunter said:
There is an underclass in this country to whom Tookie was a hero. You can see them as you drive through the cities of America. They live in the neighborhoods next to the freeways. As long as they honor his memory with a peaceful ceremony I say more power to them.
Part of the problem with the "underclass" is that they make crappy choices in heroes (and they are influenced by the media to make these bad choices). The attention is centered around athletes and thugs. The true heroes who are "people of color" (and I say this only because this is what I think is at issue here) seem to pass through unnoticed. In 1986, when the Challenger blew up there was very little outpouring of grief for Ron McNair, who was a brilliant astronaut, scientist, and talented musician, as well. He deserved a 16,000+ memorial service. He was a truly great man who gave his life for science. But when we put a convicted murderer to death, who happens to be a black man, everyone is in an uproar and starts throwing accolades on him.
Skyhunter said:
You must put it in perspective.
I think I do. Williams murdered innocent people in cold blood. He destroyed families who still miss their loved ones unbearably. He was convicted of the crimes. He was sentenced to death. Finally, he was executed. What did I miss? Oh, yes, somewhere in there he redeemed himself and wrote some inspirational childrens' books. If this strategy for clemency had worked I think we would be seeing sweet little childrens' books pouring out of death row by the thousands by every nasty, vicious, murdering, raping monster waiting for the injection. But it didn't.
Skyhunter said:
1. They are not honoring who he was but who he seemed to have become.
2. Funerals are for the living, the dead don't care. The ceremony is not for Tookie so much as for those whose lives he touched with his books.
As for the lives he truly benefitted by his books and his "redemption", I can only for sure ascertain that they were: Barbara Becnell, Jesse Jackson, Snoop Dog, some band-wagoning celebrities, and a pack of media-attention-sucking parasites. I think that he has more to offer through his death as a deterrent to the gang-banging life-style than he did through his life.
 
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  • #37
Art said:
If he had admitted his guilt he probably would have had his sentence commuted. The fact he wouldn't admit to the murders despite the consequences suggests that perhaps he felt strongly that he was innocent of the murders. Strongly enough it seems to die rather than confess to them.
It seems there are a few folk here who don't seem to have the cop on to realize that sometimes wrong verdicts are returned and sometimes the cops even fix evidence to get a conviction. I'm sure this probably comes as a shock to some of you who live in their nice clockwork, black and white world but the justice system is less than perfect. :rolleyes:
I seriousy doubt that someone who admits to killing multiple people in the progress of a robberies, including one in particular whose face was blown off with a shot gun, is going to get a commuted sentence. Unfortunately also I would have to say that the fact that his original trial was in '79 and he's black didn't help much either. More than likely he realized that he was going to get death row no matter what and took the gamble that he might get off scott free.
Since '79 the evidence of the case has been gone over several times. The veracity of witnesses has been challenged ect. His lawyer even tried to argue that the jury's decision was unduly influenced by Tookie Williams threatening them during the trial. lol
But ofcourse I'm not an expert. You can always look up the, what was it, eight times, I think, that his case has been through apeals?
Even the majority of the people who were standing up for him and trying to get him clemency didn't try saying he was innocent and admitted that he was guilty of terrible crimes.
 
  • #38
russ_watters said:
You're welcome to it, of course, but it carries no weight whatsoever. Besides - not even his lawyer tried that angle.
If you knew anything about the processes of law then you would know an appeal for clemency on the grounds of an incorrect verdict is inadmissable. His lawyer didn't argue that angle for that reason. However he did talk about the conviction in the appeal for clemency http://www.cm-p.com/pdf/executiveclemency.pdf ref pgs 9 - 10
russ_watters said:
One thing, though - you are aware of the evidence against him, right?
Yes, I read up on it. Have you? and there are certainly some elements of the case that should have been reviewed such as the information contained in this affidavit regarding the fixing of evidence by a key witness. http://www.savetookie.org/documents/Affidavit.pdf
 
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