# Science fiction writer needs help on sci-fi weapon

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1. Sep 16, 2011

### schonovic

i'm not a physics major so i have to ask a question and i may not know what i'm talking about but here goes. if i had a giant circular accelerator accelerating a metal slug from zero velocity to high velocity with say 10^12 watts per electromagnet in a circle of 10 electromagnets is it possible to accelerate the slug to a kinetic energy of greater than 10^12 joules? how does this kind of thing work?

Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
2. Sep 16, 2011

### DrStupid

Maybe this is not a good idea. To keep an object with a mass m and a velocity v on a circular path with a radius r you need a centripetal force of

$F_{circular} = \frac{{m \cdot v^2 }}{r}$

To accelerate the same object to the same velocity on a linear path with the length of 2·r (the diameter of the ring) you need the force

$F_{linear} = \frac{{m \cdot v^2 }}{{4 \cdot r}}$

That means with the same Force the linear accelerator gives the double velocity. Furthermore it is easer to target with a linear coilgun.

The circular accelerator would be the better choice if the maximum radial acceleration is at least four times greater than the tangential acceleration.

That depends on the construction.

3. Sep 16, 2011

### schonovic

thanks DrStupid

4. Jan 24, 2012

### schonovic

O.K. i get the math on the cannon but have anther question about it. a hypothetical scenerio where the iron slug is charged up to a kinetic energy of 10^22. this is 100,000 times the energy of an H-bomb. suppose i used the weapon on a planet? some how i do not think it will actually deliver that power...would it? what would be the effect?

5. Jan 25, 2012

### meldraft

Well, for one, I'm pretty sure it would disintegrate at those velocities.

In the hypothetical scenario that it doesn't, upon impact its momentum would be transfered to the body it hits, so I would expect a pretty big hole

I doubt, however, that it would reach the destructive power of an H-bomb, since it's a different mechanism of releasing that energy to its surroundings.

6. Jan 25, 2012

### schonovic

Thank you meldraft. i was thinking it would explode upon hitting the atmosphere. i guess since it hasn't been done i do not know except i like your answer about the big hole. Thanks! i was thinking about something i learned in physics class in high school. (M1XV1)+(M2XV2)=(M1+M2)X(V1+V2). i'm not even sure that's right, it's been a while, but i was thinking that a lot of the energy would be absorbed this way rather than massive destruction.

Last edited: Jan 25, 2012
7. Jan 25, 2012

### Delta Kilo

8. Jan 25, 2012

### Staff: Mentor

Assuming a "large" iron slug, much much larger than a normal bullet, I could see it surviving reentry and impacting the surface. The energy released would be equal to whatever it's kinetic energy is. It woudn't be quite like a nuke, but if it was large enough it could do significant damage.

9. Jan 27, 2012

### AlexLAV

If the slug is compact, e.g. of order of 1 m in size. Then it is a relativistic object with energy of each proton compared with the value that BHC can provide. If such object is shot into air it will be bombarded by relativistic flux of atoms with intensity of order of 10^30 1/cm^2*sec. So I imagine the slug will be disintegrated within few nsec. Since mass of air column with length of order of 1 km is compared with mass of the slug, I believe remains of the slug must lose most of the kinetic energy within this distance. So I think the explosion will be similar to explosion of a huge H-bomb. I think also, since electrons are prone to scattering on heavy particles considerably more than heavy particles, there will be a pronounced directional flux of positively charged particles for some short time (I estimate the equivalent current may be more than 10^18 Amp), that should produce powerful EMP, though I can’t compare it with EMP of H-bomb explosion.

10. Jan 27, 2012

### DaveC426913

...including the shock wave that would precede it, which would be larger than the projectile alone.

11. Jan 27, 2012

### meldraft

My knowledge of particle physics is not that extensive. My intuition, however, says that a transfer of momentum can't possibly have the same destructive effect as an H-bomb, simply because the mechanisms which distribute the energy through the environment are different. Mechanical waves should generally be dissipated in a much shorter distance than EM waves (at least in this context), which really shrinks the potential area of effect.

As far as I know, there is a limit to how large the shock wave can be, for a slug of a given size (along the same lines as saint-venant's principle). Practically, in order to have a slug with that kind of (kinetic) energy and not have it disintegrate in nanoseconds, you would have to increase its mass. Considering that you got a power of 10^22, you would need a pretty ridiculously high amount of mass to manage to hit something.

I am really curious as to whether the hypothesis in my first paragraph is justified, so if any particle physicist is reading this, I would be delighted to read an expert opinion!

12. Jan 27, 2012

### schonovic

Thank you guys for all the input. i was thinking the mass of the slug would be around 600 metric tons putting a 2,200m/s recoil on a 8,000,000 M.T. ship for a 10^22 joule kinetic energy...i think. i hope this is fun for you guys because it sure is to me, especially with all of tour help.

13. Jan 28, 2012

### AlexLAV

I’m not a particle physicist also and I try to use general consideration. I imagine very high energy is released within a limited volume. It leads to very high temperature and intense flux of various particles. I believe only neutrino can escape far away and carry their energy. All of the rest particles as well as EM radiation are high-energy and must ionize surrounding air losing their energy. Since intensity of EM radiation is proportional to 4th power of the temperature I believe considerable amount of total energy is released just due to it. Air is not transparent for EM with wavelength shorter than 200 nm. So the fireball will explode until the temperature decrease below approximately 10 thousand degrees. I estimate its diameter at that moment will be of order of 100 km. The picture should be similar to H-bomb fireball evolution except size and shape (since height of atmosphere is limited).

14. Jan 28, 2012

### AlexLAV

I think if the slug mass is 600 tons, while the launcher weights only 8,000,000 tons the recoil must be significantly higher than 2.2 km/sec (more than 10 km/sec to my estimation).

15. Jan 28, 2012

### meldraft

Sounds like someone is building a Death Star

16. Jan 28, 2012

### schonovic

the equation i'm using for recoil is V=E/mc which was given to me on another thread, in the physics forums.

17. Jan 28, 2012

### schonovic

maybe the equation works differently because it was designed to describe the recoil from firing an energy weapon and this is a kinetic energy weapon can anyone elaborate as to the difference?

18. Jan 29, 2012

### AlexLAV

I don’t know that is energy weapon, but I suppose you mean some device emitting electro-magnetic radiation, such as a laser. In that case the recoil is equal E/Mc indeed. Concerning kinetic energy weapon, shooting a projectile, the recoil velocity is V=p/M (if V<<c), where p- impulse of the projectile, M – mass of the gun. If velocity of the projectile is compared with speed of light, we must use relativistic formula for its impulse. Let’s estimate the velocity. Using classical formula for kinetic energy E=m*v^2/2 leads to v approx. equal 1.8 * 10^8 m/sec. It is relativistic velocity, but not “very” relativistic. So, as a rough estimation, we can use classical expression for impulse p=m*v. So the recoil is m/M*v, or approximately 12 km/sec.

19. Jan 29, 2012

### schonovic

Thanx AlexLAV for the breakdown it was very helpful. this is really kool.
meldraft it's not a death star but maybe it could destroy the death star without having to run fighters down a trench where they are vulnerable.:rofl:

20. Jan 29, 2012