Seeking Info on Plasma Propulsion Engine Design

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the design and functioning of plasma propulsion engines, specifically focusing on the methods of ionization and the use of microwaves in generating plasma. Participants explore various aspects of plasma generation, including the types of gases used and potential innovations in propulsion technology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about the components of a plasma propulsion engine, specifically mentioning the use of antennas and seeking a simple explanation.
  • Another participant suggests that a microwave generator is essential for creating plasma and provides links to relevant resources.
  • A question is raised about whether microwaves can ionize any gas, with a note that xenon is commonly used due to its low ionization energy.
  • It is mentioned that ionization typically occurs by sending a discharge through a gas, followed by heating the ionized gas with microwaves.
  • One participant emphasizes that high molecular weight gases like xenon are preferred for their momentum transfer efficiency in propulsion applications.
  • A request for clarification on the ionization process is made, specifically how gas is converted to plasma.
  • Another participant describes the ionization process involving a helical antenna that launches plasma waves, leading to the ejection of electrons and formation of plasma.
  • A participant introduces an idea about spinning argon gas into a vortex for potential heat recovery and power generation, linking it to the concept of plasma arcs within the vortex.
  • Research on vortex stabilized inductively coupled discharges is mentioned, along with concerns about the collision frequency in vortex flows compared to other plasma propulsion methods.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the methods of ionization and the types of gases used in plasma propulsion. There is no consensus on the effectiveness of vortex flows in plasma propulsion or the feasibility of the proposed innovations.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific technologies and research without providing detailed explanations of their methodologies or results. The discussion includes assumptions about the properties of gases and the mechanisms of plasma generation that remain unverified within the thread.

Karoka
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I wanted to ask about plasma propulsion engine. Plasma can be made by using radio waves. How this part of device looks like?(I know something, like an antenna, is used) I searched the net, but I didn't find anything.
Thanks in advance.
P.S Please explain as simple as you can
 
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And microwaves can make ions from any gas? Can it? Because I read that usually xenon is used
 
Karoka said:
And microwaves can make ions from any gas? Can it? Because I read that usually xenon is used
Xenon or other high gram-molecular-weight (GMW) gas is used because a hi-GMW gas has the highest momentum transfer (specific thrust) per unit input energy; p = (2ME)½.

Bob S
 
And then again... Can you tell me how gas can be ionized, that is converted to plasma?
 
For devices like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicon_Double_Layer_Thruster"

Ionization is accomplished with a helical antenna. The antenna launches plasma waves that accelerate electrons that collide with atoms. The collision with the atom sometimes transfers enough energy to an electron in the atom that it's ejected creating an ion and an electron. If this process happens enough the gift of plasma is formed.
 
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GiftOfPlasma said:
For devices like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicon_Double_Layer_Thruster"

Ionization is accomplished with a helical antenna. The antenna launches plasma waves that accelerate electrons that collide with atoms. The collision with the atom sometimes transfers enough energy to an electron in the atom that it's ejected creating an ion and an electron. If this process happens enough the gift of plasma is formed.

I would like to ask if you know of any research that has looked at spinning the argon gas into a very high velocity vortex, somewhere in the system ? I see possibilities of heat recovery and separation of gas mass, using centrifuge effects and possible power generation from wasted heat.
This is a question based on thoughts of plasma arch in the center of a vortex, that has been in my mind for some time now.

Thanks
Ron
 
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I've seen plenty of research on vortex stabilized inductively coupled discharges. My advisor, back when I was in school, did a dissertation on http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0729782" using bluff body stabilization. I think the efforts were to make a more conventional type of rocket replacing combustion with an ICP discharge.

Space plasma propulsion using magnetic nozzles requires a much lower collision frequency to function than you would have with a vortex flow. A vortex flow stabilized plasma discharge might have more applications in something like a scram jet but your still left with the problem of powering it.
 
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