News Should the US veto a UN resolution granting Palestine statehood?

[russ_watters]

Sorry, I missed that you got that.

 

[klimatos]

Let me clarify my position. The nation of Israel is a geographic and political fact. The stated goal of Hamas for a Zionist-free Palestine is both unrealistic and ridiculous. I believe that Hamas as a political party is not in the best interests of the Palestinian people.

On the other hand, I do not believe that the Israelis are all good guys and the Palestinians are all bad guys. That point of view is both simplistic and childish.

As to Palestinian militants operating from "civilian neighborhoods", can you show me any neighborhoods in either Gaza or the Palestinian portions of the West Bank that are not civilian? Where would you have them operating from?

 

[tiny-tim]

By the way, why are you upset about targeting civilians in time of war?

Don't be ridiculous. Of course I'm upset about targeting civilians (whether in time of war or not.

The United States used to maintain an entire military organization whose sole function was to attack civilian targets. It was called the Strategic Air Command (SAC). U. S. fighter pilots used to joke that SAC stood for "schools and children". Attacking civilian targets was a major goal of the U. S. military in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.

How is this racist lie about what the USA "used" to do "in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam" relevant to this Israel/Palestine thread?

(btw, Strategic Air Command didn't even exist in WWII, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Air_Command" , and it certainly did not have the policy you claim )

The IDF routinely targets civilian facilities. How do you think the Palestinian civilian deaths and injuries noted above came about?

The IDF targets only military facilities (including buildings used to manufacture or store munitions), and armed groups or individuals. Any innocent civilian casualties "come about" …
i] because the Palestinians operate from civilian areas or in crowds of civilians (often including children)
ii] from occasional Israeli mistakes, which the Israelis admit.

Even Israeli sources admit that the IDF have killed far more Palestinian civilians than the Palestinian terrorists (or "freedom fighters" if your sympathies lie that way) have killed Israeli civilians.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. You're relying on a curiously chosen 20-month (!) period 10 years ago.

And even if it is true, so what?

Every Palestinian killed is listed as a civilian! (Especially those brave suicide bombers! )

The Palestinians try to kill as many innocent civilians as possible.

The Israelis try to kill as few innocent civilians as possible.​

 

[klimatos]

I feel that there is a need for me to clarify my position on certain matters. I am sure that many of you consider me to be anti-Israeli. I am not, nor am I pro-Israeli. I am pro-American. I am under binding oath to act in the best interests of the people of the United States of America—as I see those interests. My oath does not require me to follow any “party line”.

For a number of years, I served as a US intelligence officer in the Middle East. I undertook missions lasting several weeks to several months in Greece, Cyprus, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, and Egypt. Like all intelligence officers, my primary function was to obtain information and materials of interest to my government.

Information collection was broken down into four phases: observation, source evaluation, analysis, and reporting. I was specifically trained and instructed not to allow official US policies to influence my analysis and reporting in any way. Up until the Bush years, policy-makers were forbidden any contact with analysts. Such contact was referred to as “pissing in the well”. I was instructed to be as objective as humanly possible. If any policy slant was to be given to my information, they would do it—not me.

As many of you will note, this insistence on objectivity is entirely consistent with the philosophy of science—and the philosophy of this Forum. When I left intelligence work and returned to academia, I grew interested in the atmospheric sciences and retired with that interest intact—hence the name “Klimatos”. I have not forgotten the Middle East, however, and have returned there many times—purely as a tourist, of course.

As I mentioned in my lead paragraph, I am not anti-Israeli. I am very much opposed to those Israeli (or any other nation’s) policies that I feel are not in the best interests of the people of the United States. I am indifferent as to whether they are in anybody else’s best interests.

Nor do I consider myself to be anti-Semitic. I grew up in Jewish neighborhoods, and those of my childhood friends that are still alive are almost all Jewish. Do we agree on Israel? Oh, hell no! But we can argue about it without getting emotional. That’s what friends are for. It’s probably irrelevant, but I might mention that as a young teenager I was the shabbat goy at the local shul.

In summary, I have tried to keep the factual parts of my posts as objective as I have been trained to do. If I am in error on my facts, by all means bring the error to my attention with the proper citations. Please don’t confuse facts with opinions, however. You are entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine—no matter how pig-headed and objectionable you find them to be.

Shalom, Salaam, Peace

 

[ThomasT]

How is this racist lie about what the USA "used" to do "in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam" relevant to this Israel/Palestine thread?

I'm guessing that klimatos was trying to point out the hyprocrisy of condemning a particular military tactic, or terrorism in general, when in fact it's been used extensively by at least one party in the Israel-US alliance.

Edit: I don't understand what you mean by "racist lie".

 

[tiny-tim]

The stated goal of Hamas for a Zionist-free Palestine is both unrealistic and ridiculous. I believe that Hamas as a political party is not in the best interests of the Palestinian people.

oh, so now you know better than the Palestinian people do, as to what is in their interests?

Hamas has democratic majority support in Gaza. Its voters do not think its goals are "unrealistic and ridiculous".

As to Palestinian militants operating from "civilian neighborhoods", can you show me any neighborhoods in either Gaza or the Palestinian portions of the West Bank that are not civilian?

There are plenty of desert areas, and deserted fields far from any civilians, that they can operate from.

Where would you have them operating from?

I would have them stop trying to kill Israeli civilians, and to destroy or absorb Israel.

So would Obama, and so would the vast majority of American voters.

… I served as a US intelligence officer in the Middle East
…
I was instructed to be as objective as humanly possible. If any policy slant was to be given to my information, they would do it—not me.
…
In summary, I have tried to keep the factual parts of my posts as objective as I have been trained to do.

oh come off it!

your "factual parts" are selective, without references to check, full of "policy slant", and in some cases both unrealistic and ridiculous.

 

[klimatos]

After further consideration I have decided that I will no longer post on this thread. I do so without any real hard feelings. The Israeli-Arab discussion seems to have gone the way of the climate-change discussion. Emotion has far outstripped reason. (Of course, those who have been emotional will insist that they have only been reasonable!)

I shall continue to post on less contentious threads. May the Peace of God that passeth all understanding be upon all of you.

 

[ThomasT]

The truth is hamas cowards position themselves in civilian neighborhoods and intentionally use civilians as human shields. It's not the fault of the Israelis.

I'm sure there's cowardice and courage, good and bad judgement, on both sides. But I think we have to conclude that the root cause of the conflict is the Zionist agenda.

Imo, there's not going to be a two-state solution, whether the US vetoes UN Palestinian resolutions or not. Because, and it seems clear to me, Israel doesn't want, and never has wanted, a two-state solution. Why should it? It's got most of the land and is steadily annexing more.

But there's still the problem of the (non-Jewish) Palestinian Arabs. Palestinian Arabs are sort of the Zionist state's 'immigrant' problem, even though the Palestinians were there first. Those in authority in Israel, and much of the population, don't want a large ethnic non-Jewish population. So how does Israel deal with Palestinian Arabs? It constrains their freedom and slowly squeezes them out. It's a war of attrition.

 

[Evo]

As to Palestinian militants operating from "civilian neighborhoods", can you show me any neighborhoods in either Gaza or the Palestinian portions of the West Bank that are not civilian? Where would you have them operating from?

How about they not turn civilian neighborhoods into combat zones at all?

 

[OmCheeto]

Shalom, Salaam, Peace

hmmm...

Do you know how to say; "I know nothing", in Hebrew, Arabic, and Parsi?

I will take your answer tomorrow, as I have a 9/11 house warming party at, OMG, 45 minutes ago! , and dinner with my sister at 6.

ps. I vote no on the veto.

 

[Evo]

even though the Palestinians were there first.

Go back in time, the Israelites where there first.

 

[rootX]

the Palestinians were there first.

Go back in time, the Israelites where there first.

One of them got dropped from the sky

 

[Bobbywhy]

Dear Mr. OmCheeto, in your post #100 above when you wrote "Parsi" were you by any chance referring to the language of Iran: Farsi?

 

[ThomasT]

Go back in time, the Israelites where there first.

That seems unlikely, since Israel didn't exist before 1948. I suppose one might say that Jewish Arabs inhabited Palestine before non-Jewish Arabs. But if we go back far enough, before Judaism, then ... But that's silly.

EDIT: I just notice that you said "Israelites" not 'Israelis', so of course they go back thousands of years. Anyway, the population of interest is the inhabitants just prior to the influx of Zionist Jews to the area, and it seems to have been largely what we call Palestinians, not European Jews.

 

[OmCheeto]

Go back in time, the Israelites where there first.

Tell me if I've told this story B4:

My mom's parent's house, which was in the eastern part of Germany, back before there was an east and west Germany, now sits inside the western border of Poland.

The question is, should I call up Barack, and ask him to invade Borek's country, because my grandparents house is now in the wrong country, and is rightfully mine?

And while I'm at it, on my dad's side, my great great grandparent's owned a farm outside of Odessa in the Ukraine. They all died during the Holodomor. I want that farm back too. There actually might have been multiple farms. My mom translated a whole bunch of letters from a whole bunch of different relatives. All dead. But I'll take the farms back now, thank you very much.

Barack! We got some invading to do!



Sorry...

As I recall, Tel Aviv, Israel's second largest city, sprung out of uninhabited desert. That is about all I know about Israel. I will leave now.

(Thank god great grandma made it out alive, or, well, you know, I'd not be.)

 

[OmCheeto]

Dear Mr. OmCheeto, in your post #100 above when you wrote "Parsi" were you by any chance referring to the language of Iran: Farsi?

Yes.

http://www.iranchamber.com/literature/articles/persian_parsi_language_history.php"

Or from wiki if you like:

pronounced in the Persian language as Fārsī or, alternatively, its etymological root Pārsī.

Parsi/Farsi/Iranian is the last language I started to learn. But then all hell broke loose on the planet and I've been treading water ever since. Hence, I know only how to say 'window', and 'I know nothing' in Parsi.

 

[MarcoD]

I don't know what's worse, US Republicans vs Democrats issues or Israel vs Palestine issues

It's most about blaming each other in both cases.

Agreed. Personally, I just got the feeling that if you take the blame game out of it, and just look at the geographic and demographic problem, the only way out is a (completely) segregated state with two equal factions and a population which has equal opportunities. And then hope that some future generation will tear down the walls because both sides are just fed up with it. (This is under the assumption that the majority of the people believe they are living with an existential conflict.)

I have the feeling that the Israeli route now seems to be the one state, one (kind-of) people, solution. It also doesn't seem to be working.

It's a complete mess. And I think it started with dividing Palestine in two, legitimizing the ideological divide. The place would even have been better off with a British occupational force. It's just one big UN cock-up.

 

[Evo]

Tell me if I've told this story B4:

My mom's parent's house, which was in the eastern part of Germany, back before there was an east and west Germany, now sits inside the western border of Poland.

The question is, should I call up Barack, and ask him to invade Borek's country, because my grandparents house is now in the wrong country, and is rightfully mine?

And while I'm at it, on my dad's side, my great great grandparent's owned a farm outside of Odessa in the Ukraine. They all died during the Holodomor. I want that farm back too. There actually might have been multiple farms. My mom translated a whole bunch of letters from a whole bunch of different relatives. All dead. But I'll take the farms back now, thank you very much.

Barack! We got some invading to do!



Sorry...

As I recall, Tel Aviv, Israel's second largest city, sprung out of uninhabited desert. That is about all I know about Israel. I will leave now.

(Thank god great grandma made it out alive, or, well, you know, I'd not be.)

The US took most of it's land by force from American Indians, we probably should give it back and leave before the native Indians start launching rockets at us.

BTW, I believe that my mother's family owns half of France and all of England based on her royal ancestors going back to the 12th century.

I'm not that busy, perhaps I should start launching rockets, are you with me OM? We can probably get you some land too. J/K

 

[estro]

Speaking of personal observation, you say you are an Israeli. Have you ever been to any Palestinian settlement on the West Bank? Have you ever compared them with nearby Israeli settlements? On what experience or other evidence are you basing your opinions on water rights in the West Bank?

As I said before, I spent most of my military career at the west bank.
I fear your opinions and/or "facts" are based on wrong TV channels/newspapers, you're a victim of anti-Israeli propaganda.
On top of this, if you're looking for cases where military actions causes civilizan casualties, you don't have to look far, USA in Afganistan.
Maybe also worth to mention double standarts of Europe and the crimes they conducted in Libya.

Fortunately yours opinions counts for nothing, we in Israel identified the problem and already applying the solution, we don't need treacherous peace, status quo will be enforced by domination [passive or active according to the needs].

 

[skippy1729]

The question was which side started the war, not which side might have started it in some alternative universe.

Israel started the war with carefully coordinated and well-planned attacks on Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Israel has admitted to spending months in training their troops specifically for these attacks. These attacks were an action, not a reaction.

If Egypt was planning on an immanent attack on Israel, they had a funny way of going about it. Large numbers of their best troops were out of the country fighting in Yemen. And most of their warplanes were destroyed on the ground, not in the air.

Nasser expelled the UN peacekeepers from the Sinai. Egypt, Syria and Jordan were all preparing for war. The blockade of the gulf of Aqaba was an act of war according to international law. All of this preceded the preemptive attack by Israel. The war began before the Israelis fired the first shot. Can you blame Israel for planning for the war which the Arabs were going to unleash?

So the Nasser was caught with his pants down and left his air force sitting ducks. Three failed wars of extermination against a much smaller state. These guys are no military geniuses.

I knew Nasser had military advisors in Yemen trying to depose the Imam but I was unaware of "large numbers". Do you have a reference?

 

[Bobbywhy]

Yes.

http://www.iranchamber.com/literature/articles/persian_parsi_language_history.php"

Or from wiki if you like:

Parsi/Farsi/Iranian is the last language I started to learn. But then all hell broke loose on the planet and I've been treading water ever since. Hence, I know only how to say 'window', and 'I know nothing' in Parsi.

Dear Mr. OmCheeto, Thank you for your fast and accurate response. Of course, you are exactly right about the origin of the Persian language. I did not mean to be critical. I am an American. I learned Farsi in Iran as a Peace Corps Volunteer there, using the language during two years in the classroom. Later I returned to Iran and worked there another year. I read, write, and speak Farsi fluently. I simply have never heard any Iranian use the term "Parsi" when speaking about their language. It seems to be archaic to use "Parsi", that's all.

 

[Proton Soup]

After further consideration I have decided that I will no longer post on this thread. I do so without any real hard feelings. The Israeli-Arab discussion seems to have gone the way of the climate-change discussion. Emotion has far outstripped reason. (Of course, those who have been emotional will insist that they have only been reasonable!)

I shall continue to post on less contentious threads. May the Peace of God that passeth all understanding be upon all of you.

that's a shame, i was enjoying reading your posts. you are a rare gem in these parts.

 

[Bobbywhy]

Oh, klimatos! I too regret your leaving this discussion. You have contributed much already.

 

[Majd100]

After further consideration I have decided that I will no longer post on this thread. I do so without any real hard feelings. The Israeli-Arab discussion seems to have gone the way of the climate-change discussion. Emotion has far outstripped reason. (Of course, those who have been emotional will insist that they have only been reasonable!)

I shall continue to post on less contentious threads. May the Peace of God that passeth all understanding be upon all of you.

Your country needs you man!

It is crime if you decide not to tell your people about your experience even if it is against the Palestinian. I wrote ten thousands of posts on the Islamic forums since 11/9 to tell that people that those Islamic terrorists are just brainwashed criminals and to show the peaceful and civilised side of the West. I used Koran and Islam to show that their ideology is evil and has nothing to do with Islam as religion and culture. I am a victim of the Israeli occupation, but I wrote many posts on Hamas website against suicide bombers, and I had difficult time with them.

Who is more extremist Hamas or Liberman (Israel baituna party) who is the second politician in Israel?? Why you do not talk about Gush Umonim (Gad party in Hebrew) or Kahana Hai and their ideology? Why you do not talk about the religious Jews schools -Jews Taliban- in West Bank and how they teach their kids to butcher the Arabs? What about the systematic destruction and non-Jews heritage in Palestine?

You should keep telling people about your experience, it is shame that many American are blindly support Israel without knowing that will harm their interest in ME and the Islamic world.

Is Israel real democracy? How could be a democratic country call it self "Jews state" and ignores the national rights of the non-Jews? Are Jews a race "nation" or religious group as Muslims and Christian? How could blond Ukrainian Jews get the full national rights before arrival to Israel, while I as Palestinian whose my ancestors living in this country since centuries are considered as sub-human??

Why you do not tell your people that we Palestinian are a nation –not a Muslim group, and many of our leaders are Christians especially in 60s and 70s?? I myself have Jews and Christian roots.

My colleague from Israel is pleased with his military services in West Bank. He wants me to forget many years of suffering. He wants me to forget that I did not live my childhood (as all Palestinian under occupation). He wants me to forget my cousin who died on the checkpoint. He wants me to forget the daily attacks from the settlers.

What happen in Palestine is a shame on the West, especially USA, UK and some European countries.

 

[Majd100]

Go back in time, the Israelites where there first.

Israeli researchers admit that the current Palestinian has "Jews roots" but they lost their religion after conversion to Christianity and Judaism.

We have many Palestinian families from Jews origin. So playing the card who is living before is not logical. People of Palestine changed their religion many times through the history –as any other nation- but their genes are the same or mixed with the invaders.

 

[Majd100]

As I said before, I spent most of my military career at the west bank.

I spent most of my life under the Israeli occupation, and I never see the paradise of your occupation?? Every morning I used to pass on checkpoint to reach my school/University, the Israeli soldiers used to slap me without any reason and to force me and other students to stand under the rain or under the sun for hours -just because we are Palestinian. By the way, I respect the Jews and I did a lot of research in history to show the contribution of Jews in the Islamic civilisation and their roots in the East. We had Jews neighbours from Yemeni origin and we always live in peace with good relations until the first intifada in 1987.

The Israeli soldiers used to ask all the males from age 14 to 70 in my village to gather at the centre. Afterward, they force all of us to clean the streets by our hands and then to stand on the walls rising our hands for several hours.

You are unlucky, because there is an invention called u-tube and all what you need is typing such worlds: checkpoints, Hebron settlers to watch your peaceful occupation and how you treat the Palestinian since decades!

Those religious Christian who supports you in USA or the white extremists who supports you in Europe are waiting the suitable time to annihilate your people. It is better to build bridges of peace and understanding with your neighbours in ME than to follow blindly those groups in the West with hidden agenda. Jews had great contribution in e ME east civilisations. They should remember that Turks, Arabs and Persians are their historical ally and they protected them many times in history.

 

[estro]

Jews Taliban- in West Bank and how they teach their kids to butcher the Arabs?

I consider this as a libel against Israel and its people!
Democracy and coexistence [both totally nonexistent in Muslim world, except of maybe Turkey which is as well on a highway to the wrong direction] is the flagship of our education system, actually I believed it before joining the army.
The facts are completely the opposite:
1.www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_...T-+Incitement-+Antisemitism+and+Hatred+of.htm
2.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textbooks_in_the_Palestinian_territories

What about the systematic destruction and non-Jews heritage in Palestine?

This is probably a joke,so I'll not comment on it. [I own you a joke.]

You should keep telling people about your experience, it is shame that many American are blindly support Israel without knowing that will harm their interest in ME and the Islamic world.

One who don't live here can't have experience, only me and you know the truth. But I don't hide behind beautiful words as you try to.

Is Israel real democracy? How could be a democratic country call it self "Jews state" and ignores the national rights of the non-Jews?

Please stop spreading lies and anti Israeli-propaganda, and backup you claims by examples.
The fact: Israeli Arabs enjoy more "national rights" than I do, as they are not obligated for military service [I spent 4 years in IDF].

My colleague from Israel is pleased with his military services in West Bank. He wants me to forget many years of suffering. He wants me to forget that I did not live my childhood (as all Palestinian under occupation). He wants me to forget my cousin who died on the checkpoint. He wants me to forget the daily attacks from the settlers.

0. Please don't call me your colleague!
1. You want me to forget my friends who will forever remain 18-20 years old?
2. You want me to forget my neighbor who was killed in terrorist attack in Netanya.
3. Daily attacks by settlers? [I guess you will never stop with lies]
The suffering you described is a dish that was prepared by yourself.

What happen in Palestine is a shame on the West, especially USA, UK and some European countries.

Pray Allah that this "occupation" will continue forever otherwise you will find out the taste of life [and blood] the taste you brothers in Siria, Libia and etc know very well.

Before PA will talk about human rights, I suggest you to protect those rights that you so much like to talk about. [I'm talking about the status of women in PA]

Those religious Christian who supports you in USA or the white extremists who supports you in Europe are waiting the suitable time to annihilate your people. It is better to build bridges of peace and understanding with your neighbours in ME than to follow blindly those groups in the West with hidden agenda. Jews had great contribution in e ME east civilisations. They should remember that Turks, Arabs and Persians are their historical ally and they protected them many times in history.

I don't trust Europe as much as I don't trust you, days where Jews were victims are over.
We know how to deal with our European "friends" and their double standarts, as good as we know how to dominate our closest "friends" and neighbors to ensure our survival.
They maybe wait for a suitable time, but for you every time is suitable.

People of Palestine changed their religion many times through the history –as any other nation- but their genes are the same or mixed with the invaders.

Sorry, I couldn't hold myself, besides, I own you a joke:
Convert one more time and problem solved?

 

[tiny-tim]

… I own you a joke …

hello friend!

no, you owe him a joke!

Dear Mr. OmCheeto, in your post #100 above when you wrote "Parsi" were you by any chance referring to the language of Iran: Farsi?

In Arabic, F and P are the same letter … if you've ever heard Arabic speakers saying "Palestinians", they pronounce it "Felastinians" (it's the Arabic word for "Philistines", which is why it was originally an insult, and was not used by the Palestinians themselves until about 1980).

So the Iranians/Persians got used to their language being called Farsi, see http://www.iranchamber.com/literature/articles/persian_parsi_language_history.php" …

Although the name of the language has been maintained as Persian or Parsi or its Arabic form Farsi (because in Arabic they do not have the letter P) the language has undergone great changes and can be categorized into the following groups.
Old Persian
Middle Persian
Classical Persian
Modern Persian
…
Modern Persian language or Farsi (Arabic pronunciation of Parsi) as spoken today consists of …

As I recall, Tel Aviv, Israel's second largest city, sprung out of uninhabited desert. That is about all I know about Israel. I will leave now.

That's right … see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv#Ahuzat_Bayit" …

In 1908, the group purchased 5 hectares (12 acres) of dunes northeast of Jaffa

… Why you do not talk about the religious Jews schools -Jews Taliban- in West Bank and how they teach their kids to butcher the Arabs?

That is a racist lie.

… while I as Palestinian whose my ancestors living in this country since centuries are considered as sub-human??

Another racist lie.

Majd100, why do you write these things? ​

 

[MarcoD]

Another racist lie.

Tim, this isn't a hollywood movie. People are dying over there because two populations believe they are in a race for survival. At the moment, there's little doubt that the 'jewish' part represses the Palestine part because of what they understand the consequences would be if they wouldn't. (Estro admitted that) Both parties have their own set of truths, propaganda and lies. There's little you can do about that, but you can't blame a Palestinian for venting his opinions. I am sorry, but it is has become irrelevant what either party claims is true.

 

[Majd100]

Pray Allah that this "occupation" will continue forever otherwise you will find out the taste of life [and blood] the taste you brothers in Siria, Libia and etc know very well.
.
?

The crusaders believed that they will occupy Palestine and Near East forever…. but they realized after 200 years that they were just dreaming.

Syria and other countries are fighting their dictators to build new democratic United States ... the same as French and American did 200 years ago. All the world respect the Arab revolutions against dictators. We will rise again and I wish you wake up before it is too late.