Show charge conservation in a curved spacetime

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The discussion focuses on demonstrating charge conservation in curved spacetime using the properties of the covariant derivative and the Riemann tensor. It highlights that while partial derivatives commute, covariant derivatives do not, leading to the need for careful manipulation of terms involving the curvature tensor. The participants explore various approaches, including using identities related to divergences of vectors and antisymmetric tensors, ultimately showing that the divergence of the current density vanishes, i.e., ∇_b j^b = 0. The conversation also touches on the relationship between the Riemann tensor's symmetry properties and the implications for conservation laws in general relativity. Overall, the thread emphasizes the mathematical intricacies involved in proving charge conservation in a curved spacetime framework.
  • #31
etotheipi said:
Anyway, guess I better study more.
Don't push yourself too much. You're doing amazingly well! :oldsmile:
 
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  • #32
TSny said:
Ok, I think I see what's bothering you. You were hoping that the EL equation for the Lagrangian would be a way to prove the identity $$\nabla_{\mu} \nabla^{\mu} \phi = \frac{1}{\sqrt{|g|}} \partial_{\mu} \left( \sqrt{|g|} g^{\mu \nu} \partial_{\nu} \phi \right)$$.
If you want to do this an alternative way is to couple the field to an external scalar current ##J##:
$$\mathcal{L}=\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{|g|} g^{\mu \nu} (\partial_{\mu} \phi)(\partial_{\nu} \phi)-\sqrt{|g|} J \phi.$$
Then you get
$$\Box \phi=J$$
as an equation of motion, and the variational principle tells you
$$\partial_{\mu} \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)}=\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \phi}.$$
Now
$$ \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)}=\sqrt{|g|} g^{\mu \nu} \partial_{\nu} \phi$$
and
$$\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \phi}=\sqrt{|g|} J,$$
from which
$$\partial_{\mu} (\sqrt{|g|} g^{\mu \nu} \partial_{\nu} \phi)=\sqrt{|g|} J \; \Rightarrow \; J=\Box \phi =\frac{1}{\sqrt{|g|}} \partial_{\mu} (\sqrt{|g|} g^{\mu \nu} \partial_{\nu} \phi).$$
QED
 
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  • #33
Hello! I was rereading this nice thread and wanted to discuss a bit further (if you are willing to do so as well of course! :smile:)

Mmm I am actually trying to show Maxwell's equations in vacuum i.e. ##g^{\nu \mu}\nabla_{\mu} F_{\nu \sigma} = 0## and ##\nabla_{[\mu}F_{\nu \sigma]}=0## using the same Riemann tensor property i.e. ##\nabla_{\mu} \nabla_{\nu} A_{\sigma} = R_{\sigma \nu \mu \rho} A^{\rho}##, where ##F_{\mu \nu} = \nabla_{\mu} A_{\nu} - \nabla_{\nu} A_{\mu}##.

Let's focus on ##g^{\nu \mu}\nabla_{\mu} F_{\nu \sigma} = 0## first.

We get

\begin{align*}
\nabla_{\mu} F_{\nu \sigma} &= \nabla_{\mu} \nabla_{\nu} A_{\sigma} - \nabla_{\mu} \nabla_{\sigma} A_{\nu} \\
&= R_{\sigma \nu \mu \rho} A^{\rho} - R_{\nu \sigma \mu \rho} A^{\rho} \\
&= 2R_{\sigma \nu \mu \rho} A^{\rho}
\end{align*}

Multiplying both sides by ##g^{\nu \mu}## yields

\begin{equation*}
\nabla^{\nu} F_{\nu \sigma} = 2 R_{\sigma \rho} A^{\rho} = 0
\end{equation*}

Where I used the fact that, in vacuum, ##R_{\mu \nu} = 0##.

Does this proof look correct to you? :smile:

I am stuck on how to show that ##\nabla_{[\mu}F_{\nu \sigma]}=0## by means of ##\nabla_{\mu} \nabla_{\nu} A_{\sigma} = R_{\sigma \nu \mu \rho} A^{\rho}## though

I start expanding it out

\begin{align*}
\nabla_{[\mu } F_{\nu \rho]} &= \frac{1}{3!} \left( \nabla_{\mu} F_{\nu \rho} + \nabla_{\nu} F_{\rho \mu} + \nabla_{\rho} F_{\mu \nu} -\nabla_{\mu} F_{\rho \nu} -\nabla_{\nu} F_{\mu \rho} -\nabla_{\rho} F_{\nu \mu} \right) \\
&= \frac{1}{3} \left( R_{\rho \nu \mu \sigma} + R_{\mu \rho \nu \sigma} + R_{\nu \mu \rho \sigma} - R_{\nu \rho \mu \sigma} - R_{\rho \mu \nu \sigma} - R_{\mu \nu \rho \sigma}\right) A^{\sigma} \\
&= \frac{2}{3} \left( R_{\rho \nu \mu \sigma}+ R_{\mu \rho \nu \sigma} + R_{\nu \mu \rho \sigma}\right) A^{\sigma}
\end{align*}

But I do not see how to show that the last equation vanishes without having to explicitly write the Riemann tensor as a function of Christoffel symbols (which does not seem to be the best idea 😅).Regards.

JD.
 
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  • #34
JD_PM said:
\begin{align*}
\nabla_{[\mu } F_{\nu \rho]} &= \frac{1}{3!} \left( \nabla_{\mu} F_{\nu \rho} + \nabla_{\nu} F_{\rho \mu} + \nabla_{\rho} F_{\mu \nu} -\nabla_{\mu} F_{\rho \nu} -\nabla_{\nu} F_{\mu \rho} -\nabla_{\rho} F_{\nu \mu} \right) \\
&= \frac{1}{3} \left( R_{\rho \nu \mu \sigma} + R_{\mu \rho \nu \sigma} + R_{\nu \mu \rho \sigma} - R_{\nu \rho \mu \sigma} - R_{\rho \mu \nu \sigma} - R_{\mu \nu \rho \sigma}\right) A^{\sigma} \\
&= \frac{2}{3} \left( R_{\rho \nu \mu \sigma}+ R_{\mu \rho \nu \sigma} + R_{\nu \mu \rho \sigma}\right) A^{\sigma}
\end{align*}

But I do not see how to show that the last equation vanishes without having to explicitly write the Riemann tensor as a function of Christoffel symbols (which does not seem to be the best idea 😅).

Alright, I got it.

\begin{equation*}
R_{[\rho \nu \mu]\sigma} = 0
\end{equation*}

😅
 
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  • #35
Just for fun:$$
\begin{align*}

\mathrm{d} \star F &= \star j \\

0 = \mathrm{d}\mathrm{d}\star F &= \mathrm{d} \star j \implies \int_{\Omega} \mathrm{d} \star j = \oint_{\partial \Omega} \star j = 0

\end{align*}$$
 
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  • #36
If you like the abstract calculus with forms, there's a textbook about electromagnetism, which may be interesting for you:

F. W. Hehl, Y. N. Obukhov, Foundations of classical electrodynamics, Springer (2003)
 
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  • #37
Thanks, I'll check that one out! Another nice book I found that teaches similar mathematics is 'Gauge Fields, Knots and Gravity' by John Baez, which is very cool :smile:
 
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