Snell's law from a mechanical model

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving Snell's law from a mechanical model involving an axle and wheels moving through different media. Participants explore the mechanics of the model, the complexity of symbolic calculations, and the relationship between the mechanical model and the established principles of light propagation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a mechanical model using an axle and wheels to derive Snell's law, noting complications in symbolic calculations.
  • Another participant suggests ensuring the turn center is at the same height when crossing the interface and warns against potential confusion with variable notation.
  • A participant expresses confidence in their approach after simplifying the calculations, while also questioning the behavior of the exiting beam compared to traditional diagrams.
  • Some participants speculate on whether the agreement with Snell's law is coincidental or indicative of deeper connections between the mechanical model and light propagation.
  • Concerns are raised about the differences in physical behavior at the boundary in the mechanical model versus light refraction.
  • Discussion includes the potential for applying Fermat's principle and Lagrangian or Hamiltonian formulations to the model, though challenges are acknowledged regarding the discontinuity in velocity at the boundary.
  • Participants note that in the limit of zero axle length, the model does not exhibit refraction, leading to further exploration of the implications of this limit.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the mechanical model's results are coincidental or indicative of a deeper relationship with Snell's law. There is no consensus on the implications of the model or the nature of the relationship between the mechanical and optical phenomena.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the symbolic calculations and the limitations of the mechanical model in accurately representing wavefront behavior at boundaries. The discussion highlights unresolved aspects of the model's applicability to light propagation.

greypilgrim
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Hi.
I'm trying to derive Snell's law from a mechanical model: An axle of length ##d## with two wheels that run at speeds ##v_1## or ##v_2##, depending on the medium they are in (##v_1>v_2## for the moment). The ##x##-axis is the interface, ##v_1## for ##y>0## and ##v_2## for ##y<0##. The wheels come in at an angle ##\alpha_1## from the top left and the origin is where the first wheel (the right one in direction of motion) enters the slow medium. Here's what I did:
  1. Calculated the turn radius (measured to the outer, i.e. left, wheel) ##r## using proportionality with ##d##, ##v_1## and ##v_2##.
  2. Calculated the centre of the turn using trigonometry with ##(r-d)## and ##\alpha_1##.
  3. The turn is over when the left wheel enters the slow medium. Hence I intercepted the turn circle of radius ##r## with the ##x##-axis and took the positive solution.
  4. Calculated the exit angle ##\alpha_2##.
Now I did this for a couple of random numerical values and got exactly the same angle as with Snell's law. However, as soon as I try this with variables, the expressions (especially the solution of the quadratic equation in step 3) get hopelessly complicated and not even Mathematica was able to simplify this to something resembling Snell's law.

Is there a better way to do this, or maybe a cleverer choice of the coordinate system?
 
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Seems easy enough if you just impose the condition that the turn center must be the same height above/below the interface at the time each wheel crosses it. Check you aren't doing anything silly like using ##r## for both the turn radius and the angle of refraction (consider possible lack of case sensitivity if you're using ##r## and ##R##).
 
I don't think I'm doing anything conceptually wrong. As I said, I got the correct result with different random numbers. It's that the symbolic calculation becomes intractable at step 3 because the solution of the quadratic equation is a huge formula that doesn't seem to simplify.
 
I didn't get a quadratic. Post what you did get to before it became unmanageable.
 
greypilgrim said:
Now I did this for a couple of random numerical values and got exactly the same angle as with Snell's law.
That's surprising if you used an axle of constant length. In most wavefront diagrams the beam width seems to change.

light_refraction.png

From: https://www.telescope-optics.net/reflection.htm
 
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I got it now. I found that the ##x##-position of where the left wheel enters the slow medium does not need to be calculated, and then it becomes straightforward.

However, before that, I finally found an expression for ##x##, that is still ugly (and eventually also leads to the correct result), but not as unmanageable as the Mathematica solution suggested.

Nice, so this memory aid is not just that, but even works quantitatively!

What I wonder now is if the exiting beam after the curve is somehow shifted compared to the usual version with two straight lines that meet at the interface. But I'm not sure if that might even depend on the point on the axle I'm looking at...
 
Is it just coincidence that this mechanical model leads to Snell's law as well, or is it more than just an analogy to the propagation of light?
 
I lean towards coincidence. The underlying physics is very different, and (besides @A.T.'s comment about beam width) you get different behaviour at the boundary - rigid rotation versus discontinuous slope.
 
Ibix said:
you get different behaviour at the boundary - rigid rotation versus discontinuous slope.
Seems like the same discontinuous slope emerges in the limit of the axle length going to zero.

What about taking the approach via Fermat's principle, light taking the path of shortest time? Can the axle and wheels be written in Lagrangian or Hamiltonian formulation, and how would that look like? Seems tricky because of the discontinuity in velocity at the boundary, how to account for the kinetic energy changing?
 
  • #10
Ibix said:
I lean towards coincidence.

greypilgrim said:
What about taking the approach via Fermat's principle,

I believe this leads to the principle of stationary phase which is dictated by least action (or time in this case). I don't have the time/energy to work it out in detail right now...
 
  • #11
greypilgrim said:
Seems like the same discontinuous slope emerges in the limit of the axle length going to zero.
If you have an axle of length ##L## with one wheel having linear speed ##v## and the other ##v/n## then the wheels follow concentric circles of radius ##R## and ##R+L## which must satisfy $$\begin{equation}\frac{v}{R+L}=\frac{v}{Rn}\end{equation}$$so that they have equal angular velocity. Requiring that the circular motion starts when one wheel enters the medium and stops when the other one enters leads to $$\begin{equation}R\sin(i)=(R+L)\sin(r)\end{equation}$$You can solve both of these for ##(R+L)/R## and equate the other sides to get Snell's Law. But note that in the case ##L=0##, (1) reduces to ##n=1## and (2) reduces to ##\sin(i)=\sin(r)##. In other words, your model tells you that a zero-length axle doesn't "refract" at the boundary at all.
greypilgrim said:
Can the axle and wheels be written in Lagrangian or Hamiltonian formulation
All physical systems can be expressed that way. But look at the diagram in post #5, specifically a wavefront crossing the boundary. Will an axle ever have that shape? If not, an axle is never going to accurately model a wavefront crossing a boundary, however complicated a mathematical approach you take.
 
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  • #12
Ibix said:
But note that in the case ##L=0##, (1) reduces to ##n=1## and (2) reduces to ##\sin(i)=\sin(r)##. In other words, your model tells you that a zero-length axle doesn't "refract" at the boundary at all.
That's why I said "limit", not "case ##L=0##".

Ibix said:
But look at the diagram in post #5, specifically a wavefront crossing the boundary. Will an axle ever have that shape?
No, but neither will a real wavefront be clipped off sharply on the sides as in this diagram.

It just find it hard to believe it to be utter coincidence for those systems to follow the exact same law, but I might just have to accept that.
 
  • #13
Ibix said:
I lean towards coincidence. The underlying physics is very different, and (besides @A.T.'s comment about beam width) you get different behaviour at the boundary - rigid rotation versus discontinuous slope.
I guess it depends on what one means by the word "coincidence". On the math level, one could also call it a "neat feature" that those two differences (width vs. slope continuity) cancel each other, yielding the same final refraction angle.

greypilgrim said:
It just find it hard to believe it to be utter coincidence for those systems to follow the exact same law, but I might just have to accept that.
On the physics level, you might have a point that it follows from least action principle. There was a nice video by Derek Mueller on this recently:

 
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