SNR and Receiver Gains - Charles's Questions Answered

  • Thread starter Thread starter Charles77
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Snr
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) and receiver gains in a system involving both analog and digital receiver gains, particularly in the context of a GE MRI scanner. Participants explore how changes in these gains affect SNR, with a focus on empirical observations and theoretical implications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Charles questions whether increasing the analog receiver gain (ARG) or digital receiver gain (DRG) affects SNR, noting that both signal and noise seem to double with these adjustments.
  • Warren states that there isn't enough information about the system to provide assistance.
  • Bob suggests that SNR is primarily determined by the first-stage input analog amplifier and its noise figure, and that increasing gain can affect noise contributions from subsequent stages.
  • Some participants propose that if the first gain stage is noiseless, it would not affect SNR, but this is not typically the case.
  • There is a discussion about the definition of "digital receiver gain," with some participants questioning whether it implies an analog signal or a digitally implemented receiver.
  • Charles clarifies that the discussion pertains to a GE MRI scanner, where both ARG and DRG can be adjusted, and shares empirical observations regarding SNR changes.
  • Another participant notes that noise originating in the front end of the receiver may not be affected by changing gain, while subsequent processing could improve SNR.
  • Bob adds that excessive noise between amplifier stages can reduce SNR, and increasing input amplifier gain may improve it under certain conditions.
  • There is a question about the design of the system and whether it introduces more noise along the chain, with concerns about the adequacy of the first stage gain.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the impact of ARG and DRG on SNR, with some suggesting that changes in gain do not affect SNR significantly, while others argue that it can depending on the noise characteristics of the system. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of specific details about the system's noise characteristics and the assumptions regarding the noise figures of the amplifiers involved. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of the terms used, particularly regarding digital receiver gain.

Charles77
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Dear all,

I have questions regarding to the relations betw SNR and receiver gains (digital and analog):

We have a system that allows us to set the analog receiver gain (ARG) and digital receiver gain (DRG). The signal doubles if we increase one integer of either ARG or DRG (eg from 12 to 13), and the filling factor of ADC also doubles (eg from 45% to 90%). My question is: Whether the SNR changes or not in this case? We tested but could not confirm.

Thanks!

Charles
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
There isn't enough information here about your system for us to be able to help.

- Warren
 
Your SNR is determined almost entirely by the first-stage input analog amplifier, the KTB noise, and the noise figure of the first stage. The noise between the first and second stages will contribute some, and less if the gain of the first stage is increased. Mixers (I.e., down-converting) introduce some gain loss and noise. If you are digitizing the output, then the granularity of the ADC will contribute some additional noise, so filling the ADC will help.
Bob S.
[added] I was once told that by "dithering" the input signal (deliberately adding a little noise signal before digitizing), I could average over any granularity of the ADC and improve the SNR. I proved this to be untrue, both mathematically and empirically. Conversely, dithering reduces the SNR.
 
Last edited:
Thank you very much!
Do I understand that (1) the Analog Receiver Gain does NOT change the SNR (because the amplifier does not distinguish noise and signal)? (2) the Digital Receive Gain does not change the SNR significantly if the digitization noise is NOT a problem?

Thanks!
 
chroot said:
There isn't enough information here about your system for us to be able to help.

- Warren
Thank you very much!
We have analog and digital amplifiers and can adjust the Analog Receiver Gain and DRG.

Do I understand that (1) the Analog Receiver Gain does NOT change the SNR (because the amplifier does not distinguish noise and signal)? (2) the Digital Receive Gain does not change the SNR significantly if the digitization noise is NOT a problem?

Thanks!
 
Charles77 said:
Thank you very much!
Do I understand that (1) the Analog Receiver Gain does NOT change the SNR (because the amplifier does not distinguish noise and signal)? (2) the Digital Receive Gain does not change the SNR significantly if the digitization noise is NOT a problem?

Thanks!

No on (1). If the first gain stage were noiseless (or had negligible noise comparred to the channel noise), then it wouldn't affect the SNR. But that is not usually the case. I believe that Bob pointed this out in post #3.
 
What do you mean by the term "digital receiver gain"?
If the word 'gain' is used, it sort of implies you're dealing with an analogue signal. Or are you talking of a digitally implemented receiver which samples and analyses the received signal? This will, surely, have an analogue front end (of course it will- you would, at least, need an ADC)?
 
Thank you all!

I was talking about a GE MRI scanner.

It has Analog Receiver (Gain) and Digital Receiver (gain). both ARG and DRG can be automatically determined or manually changed. If automatically determined, the values change from scan to scan. And I want to know the SNRs with different ARGs and DRGs.

We made tests. When we increased the ARG (with fixed DRG), or DRG (with fixed ARG) by one (eg, from 12 to 13 for ARG, or 25 to 26 for DRG), the signal clearly doubled and noise seemed also doubled. That's why I thought SNR did not change with the two gains, if the signal was not too small.
 
If the noise originates in the front end of the receiver then changing gain will not affect it. However, the subsequent processing - such as bandwidth control and averaging / noise reduction, can improve SNR. Even things like the 'gamma' (linearity of the brightness of the display) - can alter the subjective effect of noise.
There is no easy answer to the original question. The manufacturers would know best, probably. In principle, however, once you have noise mixed with a signal, then merely changing gain makes no difference.
 
  • #10
sophiecentaur said:
If the noise originates in the front end of the receiver then changing gain will not affect it..
Even if you have a low-noise (NF=noise figure) input amplifier, excessive noise between amplifier stages will [STRIKE]increase[/STRIKE] decrease the SNR. If a low NF input amplifier has 10 dB gain, and the second amplifier has a high NF, the SNR will be reduced. In this case, increasing input amplifier gain will improve SNR.
Bob S
 
Last edited:
  • #11
I agree in principle but what sort of a design introduced more noise along the chain? This kit must be very costly so I would imagine they have done their very best. 10dB seems to be a low value for the gain of a first stage (before any gain control) but I don't know the frequency involved so perhaps that is representative.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
9K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
11K
Replies
17
Views
6K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
11K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K