Solve Pedagogical Machine Homework

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves a "pedagogical machine" with three masses on frictionless surfaces, where the goal is to determine the force required to keep one mass from rising or falling. The discussion revolves around the application of Newton's laws and the relationships between the masses and forces acting on them.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the derivation of equations related to the forces acting on the masses, particularly questioning the assumptions made regarding the forces on mass M1 and the implications of the motion of mass M3.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants exploring various interpretations of the forces involved and clarifying the relationships between the masses. Some have identified potential oversights in the initial reasoning, while others have provided insights into the constraints affecting the system.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the equation derived for the forces only holds under specific conditions, such as M3 being in direct contact with M1, and discuss the implications of M3's ability to swing, which may affect the overall dynamics of the system.

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Homework Statement



A “pedagogical machine” is illustrated in the sketch (attached image). All surfaces are frictionless. What force ##F## must be applied to ##M_1## to keep ##M_3## from rising or falling?

Homework Equations



$$\sum_{}^{} \vec{F} = m \vec{a}$$

The Attempt at a Solution



I have chosen a coordinate system such that all particles have positive coordinates. My ##x##-axis points to the right and my ##y##-axis points upwards. The length of the rope remains constant, and it can be expressed as:
$$l = x_p - x_2 + \frac{\pi R}{2} + y_p - y_3$$
The pulley is located at ##(x_p,y_p)##.
Differentiating twice with respect to time and rearranging:
$$\ddot{x}_2 + \ddot{y}_3 = \ddot{x}_p$$
Since the pulley and ##M_1## are fixed:
$$\ddot{x}_2 + \ddot{y}_3 = \ddot{x}_1$$
Since ##\dot{y}_3 = 0## for all ##t##, ##\ddot{y}_3 = 0##.
In other words:
$$\ddot{x}_1 = \ddot{x}_2$$
Now, applying Newton's second law to each mass:
$$T - M_3 g = 0 ⇒ T = M_3 g$$
$$T = M_2 \ddot{x}_2$$
$$F - T = M_1 \ddot{x}_1$$
Where ##T## is the tension in the rope.
$$M_3 g = M_2 \ddot{x}_2 ⇒ \ddot{x}_2 = \frac{M_3 g}{M_2} = \ddot{x}_1$$
$$F = T + M_1 \ddot{x}_1 = M_3 g (1 + \frac{M_1}{M_2})$$
$$F = M_3 g \frac{M_1 + M_2}{M_2}$$
Which doesn't match the clue given in my book. According to my book, if all three masses are equal, then ##F = 3Mg##.
Where did I go wrong?
 

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How do you get your equation ##F-T=M_1\ddot x_1##? What are the forces acting on M1?
 
haruspex said:
How do you get your equation ##F-T=M_1\ddot x_1##? What are the forces acting on M1?

In the ##x##-direction, there's ##F## and ##T##.
##T## acts on the pulley, which is a part of ##M_1##.
All surfaces are frictionless.
 
MohammedRady97 said:
In the ##x##-direction, there's ##F## and ##T##.
##T## acts on the pulley, which is a part of ##M_1##.
All surfaces are frictionless.
Yes, but you've missed a force. What makes M3 accelerate?
 
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haruspex said:
Yes, but you've missed a force. What makes M3 accelerate?

The net force caused by the difference between ##N## and ##N'## (different normal reactions)?
 
MohammedRady97 said:
The net force caused by the difference between ##N## and ##N'## (different normal reactions)?

$$\vec{F}_{31} = -\vec{F}_{13}$$
The net force on ##M_3## is to the right, so the force ##M_3## exerts on ##M_1## must be to the left.
I guess I missed an additional constraint:
##\ddot{x}_1 = \ddot{x}_3## since ##x_3## and ##x_1## differ by a constant.
I got the right answer, thanks!
I have a question though, the equation only holds if ##M_3## is always in direct contact with ##M_1##, right?
I have not taken into account the fact that ##M_3## can swing left and right while deriving the first constraint equation.
 
MohammedRady97 said:
$$\vec{F}_{31} = -\vec{F}_{13}$$
The net force on ##M_3## is to the right, so the force ##M_3## exerts on ##M_1## must be to the left.
I guess I missed an additional constraint:
##\ddot{x}_1 = \ddot{x}_3## since ##x_3## and ##x_1## differ by a constant.
I got the right answer, thanks!
I have a question though, the equation only holds if ##M_3## is always in direct contact with ##M_1##, right?
I have not taken into account the fact that ##M_3## can swing left and right while deriving the first constraint equation.
Yes, if the two do not start quite in contact then there will be a different behaviour initially, but it wouldn't last long.
 

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