Solving higher order ODE as system of first order

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around converting a higher-order ordinary differential equation (ODE) into a system of first-order equations. The original poster expresses confusion regarding the substitution process, particularly due to the piecewise nature of the function involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the formulation of a system of first-order equations from a second-order ODE. Questions arise about the correct substitutions and the implications of using piecewise functions. There is discussion about the nature of the new variables and how to express initial conditions.

Discussion Status

Some participants have proposed potential equations and substitutions, while others seek clarification on the formulation and initial conditions. There is an ongoing exploration of how to express the system correctly and how to align initial conditions with the new variables.

Contextual Notes

The problem involves a piecewise function with specific values, and participants are attempting to reconcile the initial conditions with the new system of equations. There is uncertainty regarding the correct representation of these conditions in terms of the new variables.

gfd43tg
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For this problem, I am stuck on the actual system. I don't see what substitution I can make, and the fact that ##u(v)## is a piece-wise function is tripping me up. How the heck do I approach this?? This doesn't look like a standard problem at all.
 

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Actually, that's very much a standard problem- except perhaps that the function on the right, u, is much simpler than usual- it only has two values. No, you do not let "[itex]v=\theta[/itex]" First, it isn't the independent variable you want to change to reduce the order and second, setting one variable equal to a new variable is just changing its name- not really changing anything.

Instead, let the new variable be equal to the derivative of [itex]\theta[/itex]: [itex]\phi= d\theta/dt[/itex] so that the second derivative of [itex]\theta[/itex] is the first derivative of [itex]\phi[/itex]- [itex]d^2\theta/dt^2= d\phi/dt[/itex]. Now what does [itex]d^2\theta/dt^2= v(\theta)[/itex] become?
 
okay,
Are these two my new system of two first order equations? They don't have to be derivatives with respect to the same variable?
[itex]\phi = \frac{d{\theta}}{dt}[/itex]
[itex]\frac{d^2{\theta}}{dt^2} = \frac{d{\phi}}{dt}[/itex]

Therefore,
[itex]\frac{d^2{\theta}}{dt^2} = u(\int \phi{dt})[/itex] ?

How do I specify the new initial conditions
 
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Specifically:

##\frac{d \phi}{dt} = u(\int \phi(t) dt)##

Really there are two first order equations here. Do you see them?
 
I'm afraid I don't see them
 
You are given a specified piecewise function. It only has two values.
 
So does that mean the two equations are

[itex]\frac {d{\phi}}{dt} = -1[/itex] if ##u(\int \phi{dt}) \ge 0##
[itex]\frac {d{\phi}}{dt} = 1[/itex] if ##u(\int \phi{dt}) \lt 0##.

and if so, now how do I determine the new conditions?
 
Last edited:
Maylis said:
okay,
Are these two my new system of two first order equations? They don't have to be derivatives with respect to the same variable?
[itex]\phi = \frac{d{\theta}}{dt}[/itex]
[itex]\frac{d^2{\theta}}{dt^2} = \frac{d{\phi}}{dt}[/itex]
No, you put "[itex]\phi[/itex]" in the wrong place!
[itex]\frac{d\phi}{dt}= u(\theta)[/itex]

Therefore,
[itex]\frac{d^2{\theta}}{dt^2} = u(\int \phi{dt})[/itex] ?

How do I specify the new initial conditions

Your initial conditions were originally [itex]\theta(5)= \pi/2[/itex] and [itex]\theta'(5)= \pi/10[/tex]<br /> so in terms of [itex]\theta[/itex] and [itex]\phi[/tex] would be [itex]\theta(5)= \pi/2[/itex], [itex]\phi(5)= \pi/10[/itex].[/itex][/itex]
 
HallsOfIvy,

So does that mean my two equation system is

##\frac {d{\phi}}{dt} = -1## if ##\theta \ge 0##

##\frac {d{\phi}}{dt} = 1## if ##\theta \lt 0## ??

with initial condition ##\phi(5) = \pi/10## and ##\dot{\theta}(5) = \pi/2##?? But then only one condition is in terms of ##\phi##, and the other in terms of ##\dot{\theta}##, is there a way to make the second one in terms of ##\phi##?
 
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