News Sonic Weapon in Cuba: Mystery of Health Attacks Deepens

[substitute materials]

Anybody have any ideas what this could be? diplomats in Cuba have reported being victims of "Health attacks", where they hear strange sounds and then experience health effects.The articles are listing hearing loss, concussion, and lingering brain damage as serious symptoms. nose bleeds, headaches, nausea etc. as well. The sounds are apparently extremely localized, into individual rooms, and even just the beds of sleeping diplomats. Super weird, although maybe all the details aren't being reported on national security grounds or whatever.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-weapon-attacks-at-us-embassy-in-cuba-deepens

What are the physics of this? Is it possible to localize sound that can do this damage, through walls, without an array of refrigerator-sized speakers? Sub-sonic? Ultra-sonic? I've seen artist's sound installations that use banks of speakers to create localized sounds such that it changes dramatically as you walk around or turn your head, but those changes are in the midst of a cacophony, not silence. Lamont Young and Maryanne Amacher have worked with these phenomena.

Is there some non-sound explanation?

 

[jedishrfu]

Perhaps some variant of directed infrasound:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound

 

[substitute materials]

Sure, so what would it take to generate and direct infrasound at the intensity that it could give someone a concussion? Are we talking about many precisely positioned speakers? Would they need to be very large? How far away could they be? Could they be in vans parked around the embassy, or underground, or in the air?

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I think the 20 meter dish pointed at the embassy would be a clue...

 

[jackwhirl]

I don't want to make light of anyone's health issues, and it seems like -something- happened to at least a few people, but every time I hear about this my brain is strongly pattern matching the nocebo effect. Here explained by CGPGrey.

 

[Choppy]

If you're looking for the physics behinds this, remember that physics starts with good scientific practice.

Sure, it's fun to speculate on these kinds of things. But at best what we have are a pile of anecdotes. Anecdotes at not data.

In order to begin the process of figuring out what - if anything - these attacks were, we first need credible and consistent evidence of their effects. So far it seems that all that's coming out are a handful of reports from sources who are largely remaining anonymous about effects that are inconsistent between sources. These are all major flags to halt any kind of speculation.

 

[jackwhirl]

In order to begin the process of figuring out what - if anything - these attacks were, we first need credible and consistent evidence of their effects. So far it seems that all that's coming out are a handful of reports from sources who are largely remaining anonymous about effects that are inconsistent between sources. These are all major flags to halt any kind of speculation.

This is exactly what I would like to have said, in addition to what I had above. Thank you.

 

[substitute materials]

I agree that there's not much reliable evidence to go on here. How about the reverse approach- what are sonic weapons known to be capable of?

 

[glappkaeft]

I agree that there's not much reliable evidence to go on here. How about the reverse approach- what are sonic weapons known to be capable of?

Sonic weapons are know to be easily detectable by microphones. Which is another reason to be skeptical.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

The best sonic weapon to date didn't stop Bruce Banner.

 

[russ_watters]

Sonic weapons are know to be easily detectable by microphones. Which is another reason to be skeptical.

Well, easily detectable if the microphone is on and in the right spot. My first read was one of high skepticism too, but this has now evolved into a full-fledged international incident so it looks like it's for real and serious:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/politics/us-cuba-diplomatic-staff/index.html

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/01/04/510834.full.pdf

Beginning in late 2016, diplomats posted to the United States embassy in Cuba began to experience unexplained health problems—including ear pain, tinnitus, vertigo, and cognitive difficulties —which reportedly began after they heard strange noises in their homes or hotel rooms.
...
Although the causes of the health problems reported by embassy personnel are beyond the scope of this paper, our findings highlight the need for more rigorous research into the source of these ailments, including the potential psychogenic effects, as well as possible physiological explanations unrelated to sonic attacks.

 

[jedishrfu]

The latest news here is that some researchers believe it was crickets.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/health/cuba-sonic-attack-crickets-scli-intl/index.html

When a number of US diplomats and their families in Cuba reported hearing bizarre noises in 2016 and 2017-- and experienced a range of symptoms such as dizziness, vertigo, and pain and ringing in the ears -- US Department of State officials feared they might have fallen victim to an "acoustic attack" by sonic devices.

In October 2017, the Associated Press obtained and released the first publicly reported audio sample said to be related to the incidents. But US officials have been unable to definitively identify the source or cause of the symptoms, and Cuban officials have denied any attack.
But now, after analyzing the recording, scientists say the source of the piercing noise said to be a "sonic attack" -- described by the diplomats' as "buzzing," "grinding metal" and "piercing squeals" -- could be an echoing call of a cricket. Specifically, the Indies short-tailed cricket, Anurogryllus celerinictus.

 

[nsaspook]

The latest news here is that some researchers believe it was crickets.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/health/cuba-sonic-attack-crickets-scli-intl/index.html

If I remember correctly the Cubans said it was crickets from the very beginning.

 

[jedishrfu]

Yeah, I guess you could say they were really bugged.

Here's a cousin to the cricket:

 

[nsaspook]

Yeah, I guess you could say they were really bugged.

Here's a cousin to the cricket:

View attachment 236993

Found it.
https://qz.com/1113692/cuba-sonic-a...ets-and-cicadas-for-injuries-to-us-diplomats/

“We compared the spectrums of the sounds and evidently this common sound is very similar to the sound of a cicada,” Lt. Col. Juan Carlos Molina, a Cuban government expert, said on the television broadcast Alleged Sonic Attacks. The program also claimed sufficiently loud insect noises could “http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cuba-presents-detailed-defense-sonic-attack-charges-50752240 in situations of prolonged exposure.”

 

[berkeman]

"The program also claimed sufficiently loud insect noises could “http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cuba-presents-detailed-defense-sonic-attack-charges-50752240 in situations of prolonged exposure.”

https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/science/2016/05/03/03-what-its-like-misophonia.w700.h700.jpg

 

[jedishrfu]

Kids!

 

[davenn]

The latest news here is that some researchers believe it was crickets.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/health/cuba-sonic-attack-crickets-scli-intl/index.html

playing devil's advocate for a moment ...

wouldn't using the sound some local fauna be the idea way of masking a man-made attack ?
( not masking an attack with in "live" cricket sounds but actually using recorded cricket sounds and embedding other
sounds within)

 

[nsaspook]

playing devil's advocate for a moment ...

wouldn't using the sound some local fauna be the idea way of masking a man-made attack ?
( not masking an attack with in "live" cricket sounds but actually using recorded cricket sounds and embedding other
sounds within)

Occam's razor

 

[russ_watters]

playing devil's advocate for a moment ...

wouldn't using the sound some local fauna be the ideal way of masking a man-made attack ?
(not masking an attack with in "live" cricket sounds but actually using recorded cricket sounds and embedding other
sounds within)

Or if cricket sounds themselves are annoying, just record and play them back really loud!

Just how loud are these crickets?

 

[berkeman]

[ speculation ]

Maybe the crickets were reacting to the ultrasonic broadcast...?

[ /speculation ]

 

[russ_watters]

Occam's razor

Says what?

 

[jack476]

I think the smart money's still on a combination of food poisoning, mass hysteria, and maybe just a tiny bit of xenophobia.

 

[nsaspook]

Says what?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/01/the-real-story-behind-the-havana-embassy-mystery

Another bug in the initial sonic-weapon theory was exposed by … a bug. As the diplomats prepared to undergo a battery of tests, the Associated Press leaked a recording made in Cuba by one of the two dozen afflicted staffers and posted it on YouTube. Although the sound had been described in a number of contradictory ways, some of those who heard it experienced something like a high-pitched, high-frequency stridulation. In short, it sounded like chirping. And, in fact, once experts listened to the YouTube recording, there was an almost embarrassing revelation. What did many hear? Crickets.

Literally, crickets. Specifically, Gryllus assimilis, a.k.a. the Jamaican field cricket, also known sarcastically among bug experts as the “silent cricket.” And while Gryllus can get as loud as, say, a vacuum cleaner, it’s not noisy enough to cause deafness. Or, others argued, the sound might be cicadas. ProPublica’s groundbreaking investigation into the embassy mystery last winter quoted a biology professor named Allen Sanborn as saying that the only way a cicada could injure your hearing was if “it was shoved into your ear canal.”

By January 2018, some of the government’s own experts had ruled out a sonic attack. In an interim report, the F.B.I. revealed that it had investigated sound waves below the range of human hearing (infrasound), those we can hear (acoustic), and those above our hearing range (ultrasound). The conclusion: there was no sonic cause to the physical symptoms experienced by the diplomats.

 

[russ_watters]

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/01/the-real-story-behind-the-havana-embassy-mystery

This doesn't answer my question. I think what you are intending here is to say that if it sounds like bugs, then Occam's Razor says it is probably bugs. The problem is, I've never heard of insect sounds causing injury.

Occam's Razor isn't just searching for the simplest answer, it's searching for the simplest answer that explains the data. These reports only cover half of the issue.

And not for nothing, but I think it is a bad idea to take a dictator's opinion at face value.

 

[nsaspook]

This doesn't answer my question. I think what you are intending here is to say that if it sounds like bugs, then Occam's Razor says it is probably bugs. The problem is, I've never heard of insect sounds causing injury.

Occam's Razor isn't just searching for the simplest answer, it's searching for the simplest answer that explains the data. These reports only cover half of the issue.

And not for nothing, but I think it is a bad idea to take a dictator's opinion at face value.

Exactly, the insect sounds, man-made or natural are not the cause of injury if the audio recording are representative of what people heard. Occam's Razor is the simplest answer about bug sound sonic weapons and psychogenic symptoms are a good candidate for 'injury' from those bug sounds.

 

[russ_watters]

I think the smart money's still on a combination of food poisoning, mass hysteria, and maybe just a tiny bit of xenophobia.

Maybe, though xenophobia is not really the right word. Even if Cuba has earned non-adversary status, it is a built-in job requirement of a diplomatic mission anywhere to view their host as an adversary.

 

[russ_watters]

Exactly, the insect sounds man-made or natural are not the cause of injury if the audio recording are representative of what people heard.

How does that follow? You're skipping more steps in the logic: I need you to say what you are thinking, not leave me to guess!

Though maybe you tried:

Occam's Razor is the simplest answer about bug sound sonic weapons and psychogenic symptoms are a good candidate for 'injury' from those bug sounds.

I don't think this is a sentence.

 

[jedishrfu]

Jiminy Cricket says: That's an interesting idea!

 

[berkeman]

https://media.tenor.com/images/6b0de73920eb27eb3f8819e3ebdd6774/tenor.gif

 

[nsaspook]

How does that follow? You're skipping more steps in the logic: I need you to say what you are thinking, not leave me to guess!

Though maybe you tried:

I don't think this is a sentence.

What logic steps would those be for just natural cricket sounds? Yes, I think it was just natural cricket sounds and mostly psychogenic symptoms. The Cuban's operating some mysterious, publicly undetectable remote energy weapon that we have no counter-measures to stop is pretty far fetched to me yes.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...-embassy-don-rsquo-t-add-up-mdash-for-anyone/

 

[russ_watters]

What logic steps would those be for just natural cricket sounds? Yes, I think it was just natural cricket sounds and mostly psychogenic symptoms.

Yes, those are the two assumptions:
1. The sounds are representative.
2. The symptoms are psychogenic.

Neither of these critical assumptions were examined in the study. Nor was a third:

3. Psychogenic injuries could not have been caused by the sound.

Occam's Razor would indicate the opposite conclusion than the one you reached because the opposite conclusion involves the fewer assumptions!

 

[nsaspook]

Yes, those are the two assumptions:
1. The sounds are representative.
2. The symptoms are psychogenic.

Neither of these critical assumptions were examined in the study. Nor was a third:

3. Psychogenic injuries could not have been caused by the sound.

Occam's Razor would indicate the opposite conclusion than the one you reached because the opposite conclusion involves the fewer assumptions!

I've seen nothing that says the recorded sounds were not representative and several articles including the link on my original post that say they are.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/01/04/510834.full.pdf

United States personnel made multiple recordings of the distinctive sound and these recordings were played to embassy personnel so they would know what to listen for. The Associated Press (AP) received several of these recordings and posted one representative sample online. Recordings were sent to the U.S. Navy and FBI for analysis, and some were made available to the Cuban government. Because these recordings are the only non-medical evidence available on the “sonic health attacks” in Cuba, much attention has focused on identifying the origin

 

[russ_watters]

I've seen nothing that says the recorded sounds were not representative and several articles including the link on my original post that say they are.

They are missing a critical property: volume.

Here are the questions needing answers in this case:

1. Did any staff sustain real injuries?
2. Did the sound cause any of the injuries?
3. What is the nature of the sound?
4. What is the source of the sound?

All of these are separate questions. The recent report seeks to answer only #3, which is the least consequential of them.

 

[jack476]

Maybe, though xenophobia is not really the right word. Even if Cuba has earned non-adversary status, it is a built-in job requirement of a diplomatic mission anywhere to view their host as an adversary.

And ideally diplomats would be expected to be sufficiently well-composed to not allow healthy suspicion to devolve into conspiracy theories about mind control devices. My confidence in the US government to responsibly deal with racially or ethnically charged issues (or non-white countries in general) is...limited right now, to put it mildly.

 

[russ_watters]

And ideally diplomats would be expected to be sufficiently well-composed to not allow healthy suspicion to devolve into conspiracy theories about mind control devices.

Yes. And not just "expected", but trained and selected.

My confidence in the US government to responsibly deal with racially or ethnically charged issues (or non-white countries in general) is...limited right now, to put it mildly.

I can guess why, but to be broad: be careful of the risk of letting your own prejudices cause projection of prejudices on others. Most people working in the federal government are career workers in their fields, and their skills are not automatically/directly affected by "right now".

 

[nsaspook]

They are missing a critical property: volume.

Here are the questions needing answers in this case:

1. Did any staff sustain real injuries?
2. Did the sound cause any of the injuries?
3. What is the nature of the sound?
4. What is the source of the sound?

All of these are separate questions. The recent report seeks to answer only #3, which is the least consequential of them.

I don't think the volume is a missing property as the recorded microphone level to recording media clipping and background noises gives an reasonable calibration of sound. As for the source, there are 'tells'.

Other hypotheses that invoke stable digital signal sources for this sound (a) do not explain the few-percent drift in the PRR, (b) are not as well-matched spectrally , and (c) fail to explain the pulse structure and frequency decay through each pulse seen in the AP recording. The first individual to believe this sound was associated with health issues reported that the sound stopped abruptly when he opened the front door. This and other reports of the sound abruptly stopping with movement in a room are also consistent with an insect stopping a call when threatened.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't think the volume is a missing property as the recorded microphone level to recording media clipping and background noises gives an reasonable calibration of sound.

Here's the paper:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/01/04/510834.full.pdf

I see nothing in there suggesting the authors attempted to ascertain the volume of the original source by any method, much less that one, nor do I think such a thing is possible from a recording. I think it is impossible to tell the difference between a loud sound slightly further away than a softer sound. Or, for that matter, a more or less sensitive microphone or recording gain level. Also, since the recording was produced for the purpose of telling people what to "look" for, I would think the government would have chosen as "clean" a recording as they could make, devoid of background noise. But in any case, they made no comment on having done any of that. All they said they did is waveform matching.

As for the source, there are 'tells'.

Such as? Does the paper discuss them?

A key quote from the article:

While the temporal pulse structure in the recording is unlike any natural insect source, when the cricket call is played on a loudspeaker and recorded indoors, the interaction of reflected sound pulses yields a sound virtually indistinguishable from the AP sample. This provides strong evidence that an echoing cricket call, rather than a sonic attack or other technological device, is responsible for the sound in the released recording.

Don't read it too fast or make sure to let the first sentence sink in before moving to the second: "...when the cricket call is played on a loudspeaker and recorded..." Again: "...played on a loudspeaker and recorded..."

In order to create a match, they played recorded sounds on a loudspeaker and re-recorded them. And that tells them the sounds in the government recording are natural? Obvious question: why doesn't it tell them the sounds were created in exactly the same way they created their sounds? They're skipping a step in logic like so many others are.

 

[nsaspook]

Here's the paper:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/01/04/510834.full.pdf

I see nothing in there suggesting the authors attempted to ascertain the volume of the original source by any method, much less that one, nor do I think such a thing is possible from a recording. I think it is impossible to tell the difference between a loud sound slightly further away than a softer sound. Or, for that matter, a more or less sensitive microphone or recording gain level. Also, since the recording was produced for the purpose of telling people what to "look" for, I would think the government would have chosen as "clean" a recording as they could make, devoid of background noise. But in any case, they made no comment on having done any of that. All they said they did is waveform matching.In order to create a match, they played recorded sounds on a loudspeaker and re-recorded them. And that tells them the sounds in the government recording are natural? Obvious question: why doesn't it tell them the sounds were created in exactly the same way they created their sounds? They're skipping a step in logic like so many others are.

Are you saying the audio level of the recorded 'crickets' caused the medical issues the people reported?
https://entnemdept.ifas.ufl.edu/walker/buzz/492a.htm Indies short-tailed cricket

The FBI reportedly doesn't believe that after analyzing recordings of the reported sounds and testing the hypothesis in general.
https://apnews.com/37deffe6a9ad408abc5a1a0277056d90

Tillerson’s comments and the FBI report illustrate how befuddled the U.S. still seems about the mystery in Havana, more than a year after embassy workers started reporting illnesses including hearing loss, vision problems and memory issues. Symptoms often followed unexplained sounds in diplomats’ homes that led investigators to suspect a futuristic sonic weapon. The U.S. has said 24 government workers were harmed. Canada has reported some of its diplomats were affected, too.

The FBI report, which hasn’t been released publicly, is the clearest sign to date of the U.S. ruling out the sonic weapon theory. The report says the FBI tested the hypothesis that air pressure waves via audible sound, infrasound or ultrasound could be used to clandestinely hurt Americans in Cuba, and found no evidence. Infrasound waves are below the range of human hearing. Ultrasound is above.

The FBI declined to comment Monday.

It's possible (but not likely) that some sort of new Russian RF/EM weapon was used with a Frey Effect from the energy beams but then how do will we explain the recording of sounds waves outside a persons head reflecting off walls.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...65d92a3585d_story.html?utm_term=.8599be1fd07d

Despite the buzz over microwaves, advanced in news reports in recent days, experts warn that caution is in order. There’s an old scientific aphorism that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. “And they’re not giving the extraordinary evidence. They’re not giving any evidence,” said physicist Peter Zimmerman, an arms control expert and former scientific adviser to the State Department and Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

No microwave weapon that affects the brain is known to exist. The FBI has investigated the Cuba cases and found no evidence of a plot. Searches of the U.S. Embassy and other locations in Havana have turned up no sign of a weapon.

Most significantly, doctors examining the sickened diplomats have established no clear link between their symptoms and any external source.
...
“It’s crazy,” said Kenneth R. Foster, a professor of bioengineering at the University of Pennsylvania who studied microwave phenomena while working at the Naval Medical Research Center in Bethesda. Foster, who was not involved in examining the diplomatic personnel, said that the reported illnesses remain mysterious and that he doesn’t have an explanation.

“But it’s sure as heck not microwaves,” he added.

University of Cincinnati neurologist Alberto J. Espay said, “Microwave weapons is the closest equivalent in science to fake news.”

 

[russ_watters]

Are you saying the audio level of the recorded 'crickets' caused the medical issues the people reported?

I'm saying it is a possibility that should be investigated, not assumed.

The FBI reportedly doesn't believe that after analyzing recordings of the reported sounds and testing the hypothesis in general.
https://apnews.com/37deffe6a9ad408abc5a1a0277056d90

Yes, and hopefully they investigated it instead of assuming it too, but unfortunately we don't have access to their report.

It's possible (but not likely) that some sort of new Russian RF/EM weapon was used...

I agree this is the least likely explanation.

[edit] One thing that bugs me about the crickets explanation is its obviousness. Every locale has unique fauna, but any local can tell you "what's that annoying noise?" I had such an experience in Puerto Rico last year (answer: frogs). It strains credulity that such an obvious explanation - or red herring - could be missed so easily with or without an investigation.

 

[nsaspook]

I'm saying it is a possibility that should be investigated, not assumed.

Yes, and hopefully they investigated it instead of assuming it too, but unfortunately we don't have access to their report.

I agree this is the least likely explanation.

[edit] One thing that bugs me about the crickets explanation is its obviousness. Every locale has unique fauna, but any local can tell you "what's that annoying noise?" I had such an experience in Puerto Rico last year (answer: frogs). It strains credulity that such an obvious explanation - or red herring - could be missed so easily with or without an investigation.

The local Cubans did say it was insects after listening to the recording but nobody really believed them because 'who would trust them'.
https://apnews.com/bb25d1a5a0624ab489fa2e0ea24a0888

Thursday night’s special did not present an alternate explanation for the facts presented by U.S. officials, with one significant exception. Officials with Cuba’s Interior Ministry said that U.S. investigators had presented them with three recordings made by presumed victims of sonic attacks and that analysis of the sounds showed them to be extremely similar to those of crickets and cicadas that live along the northern coast of Cuba.
...
Cuba said it had reported its findings on the similarity of the recordings to cricket sounds, and the U.S. had not responded.

The Cuban Cricket Crisis

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/h...versary-intelligence-review-finds/ar-AA1868bw

The mysterious ailment known as “Havana syndrome” did not result from the actions of a foreign adversary, according to an intelligence report that shatters a long-disputed theory that hundreds of U.S. personnel were targeted and sickened by a clandestine enemy wielding energy waves as a weapon.
...
Seven intelligence agencies participated in the review of approximately 1,000 cases of “anomalous health incidents,” the term the government uses to describe a constellation of physical symptoms including ringing in the ears followed by pressure in the head and nausea, headaches and acute discomfort.

Five of those agencies determined it was “very unlikely” that a foreign adversary was responsible for the symptoms, either as the result of purposeful actions — such as a directed energy weapon — or as the byproduct of some other activity, including electronic surveillance that unintentionally could have made people sick, the officials said. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the findings of the assessment, which had not yet been made public.

One agency, which the officials did not name, determined that it was “unlikely” that a foreign actor was at fault, a slightly less emphatic finding that did not appreciably change the consensus. One agency abstained in its conclusion regarding a foreign actor. But when asked, no agency dissented from the conclusion that a foreign actor did not cause the symptoms, one of the intelligence officials said.
Click to expand...

One of the officials said that even in geographic locations where U.S. intelligence effectively had total ability to monitor the environment for signs of malicious interference, analysts found no evidence of an adversary targeting personnel.

“There was nothing,” the official said. This person added that there was no intelligence that foreign leaders, including in Russia, had any knowledge of or had authorized an attack on U.S. personnel that could explain the symptoms.

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/havana-syndrome-nih-study-1.7147124
5-year study finds no brain abnormalities in 'Havana Syndrome' patients

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2816532

Question Can a systematic evaluation using quantitative magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) metrics identify potential brain lesions in patients who have experienced anomalous health incidents (AHIs) compared with a well-matched control group?

Findings In this exploratory study that involved brain imaging of 81 participants who experienced AHIs and 48 matched control participants, there were no significant between-group differences in MRI measures of volume, diffusion MRI–derived metrics, or functional connectivity using functional MRI after adjustments for multiple comparisons. The MRI results were highly reproducible and stable at longitudinal follow-ups. No clear relationships between imaging and clinical variables emerged.

Meaning In this exploratory neuroimaging study, there was no significant MRI-detectable evidence of brain injury among the group of participants who experienced AHIs compared with a group of matched control participants. This finding has implications for future research efforts as well as for interventions aimed at improving clinical care for the participants who experienced AHIs.