Static Electricity -- How best to generate it and use it?

[TheGolferman]

Hello friends,

Was wondering, how would you go about charging an object with a lot of static electricity, and that I could hold. Just like if I had a balloon I just rubbed in my hair but, i don't know, 1000 times stronger...
Is that possible, and if so, how could I achieve that ?

Thank you all,
Theo

 

[Baluncore]

Welcome to PF.

A balloon is a sphere with capacitance to the surrounding environment and Earth. If you charge it to a higher voltage it will leak away, across the surface, down the string, or by corona discharge.

You need a bigger balloon with better insulators in a dry environment. You also need a generator of high voltages such as a Marx, a Van de Graaff, or a CW voltage multiplier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx_generator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockcroft–Walton_generator

 

[TheGolferman]

Welcome to PF.

A balloon is a sphere with capacitance to the surrounding environment and Earth. If you charge it to a higher voltage it will leak away, across the surface, down the string, or by corona discharge.

You need a bigger balloon with better insulators in a dry environment. You also need a generator of high voltages such as a Marx, a Van de Graaff, or a CW voltage multiplier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx_generator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockcroft–Walton_generator

Hum... thank you for the answer. So you are saying, a hand held device, which is charged with a lot of static electricity is not realistic ?

 

[TheGolferman]

Hum... thank you for the answer. So you are saying, a hand held device, which is charged with a lot of static electricity is not realistic ?

and when I say hand held, I mean like actually hand held. Not much bigger than a tennis racket for example.

 

[Baluncore]

Why do you want more charge?
Do you want to make a Taser or a cattle prod ?

 

[TheGolferman]

Haha, no, nothing like that. I would like to be able to pick up very light things (small pieces of paper for example) by hovering over them with this handheld device.

 

[Baluncore]

I would like to be able to pick up very light things (small pieces of paper for example) by hovering over them with this handheld device.

Why would they let go of where they were resting, to travel towards your magic wand ?

 

[TheGolferman]

Why would they let go of where they were resting, to travel towards your magic wand ?

Hum, I was thinking it would work like this… just more powerful

 

[Baluncore]

Do you notice how more than half fly away, not towards the comb?
If the comb discharges to them, they get a like charge, then fly away fast, before sticking hard to the bench.
Before lifting them, you must wash them with an opposite charge to the comb.

 

[TheGolferman]

Huh, ok, so not possible. Well thanks for the info. Have a good day !

 

[sophiecentaur]

Do you notice how more than half fly away, not towards the comb?
If the comb discharges to them, they get a like charge, then fly away fast, before sticking hard to the bench.
Before lifting them, you must wash them with an opposite charge to the comb.

The paper pieces do not need to be charged, initially and I doubt that many of the pieces will actually be charged. The attraction is due to Electrostatic Induction; each piece that's brought close to the charged comb becomes polarised, with like charges being repelled and unlike charges being attracted. This imbalance, with the unlike charges being closer, causes a net attraction.

In the case of light, conducive particles, after the particle actually touches the attractor, the unlike charges tend to move onto it and then you have like charges on it and, hence, repulsion. The effect will be gradually to discharge the comb. With a metal attractor, with a power supply, the effect can be better.

 

[TheGolferman]

Wow, okay, thank you for your answer. So you are saying that if I can maintain a strong negative or positive charge in my object, without it discharging, Then the imbalance in, let's say, the pieces of paper, will continously be attracted a go towards that object.

And how would you go about creating electrostatic induction ?

 

[sophiecentaur]

And how would you go about creating electrostatic induction ?

The Electrophorus (glorious name, don't you think?) is the most elementary apparatus which uses electrostatic induction to charge things up. You start with a insulating plate on the bottom and you transfer charges (say +) onto it by rubbing with cloth, fur etc.. The second part of the device is a metal plate (often a baking tin on a polythene handle). You lower the plate onto the charged surface and that polarises it. The insulator attracts - charges and repels + charges as far away as they can go on the metal plate. You touch the metal and the + charges all flow through you to ground. You take your finger away and the metal plate is left with an excess of - charges. An electroscope will show the metal plate is charged and sometimes you can get a small spark off it if you discharge it. You repeat the action :polarise ... dump + charges... remove - charged plate etc. etc. The charges on the plastic plate are not affected (it's an insulator) and you have an endless supply of charges. The energy comes from your muscles. Read the wiki link.
There are many alternative setups for this but a large area between charged plate and metal plate and a very small gap gives best results.

There are a number of pieces of apparatus that use induction to build up very high potentials. Look up Whimshurst Machine, which can be used to charge up two Leyden Jars (capacitors) with enough charge to give a nasty shock.

 

[TheGolferman]

Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me… yes that electrophorus thing looks very interesting. Will definitely be playing around with something like that. Very cool! Last question : what does this thing do ? : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L13VNZW/?tag=pfamazon01-20
It says negative ion generator… does that mean it creates static electricity ?
Thanks !

 

[sophiecentaur]

what does this thing do ?

It seems to be a high voltage generator. I assume it produces A high DC voltage across two wires and would need to be mounted within a suitable case. It's the guts of several bits of equipment - fringe medicine and model making. It probably generates sparks which can liberate positive and negative ions from the molecules in air. It's 'all electricity' so I can't say it's nothing to do with your question but it's probably of no use to you, to be honest. Don't waste your money, is my advice.

I'd imagine that it won't be lethal or Amazon wouldn't sell it but I would steer clear. Maybe another PF member could help you; it's definitely a bit of DIY

 

[Baluncore]

It says negative ion generator… does that mean it creates static electricity ?

Yes.
It looks like the high voltage supply used to drive one of the corona wires in a photocopier or laser printer. There it prepares the drum, or controls the electrostatic movement of dry powder toner from the drum to the paper.

I expect the black wire is grounded, then it's red mate is connected to a 12 volt DC supply, (between 9V and 15V). The module then generates something between 2kV and 6kV from the isolated red wire that connects to the fine corona wire. The listing claims 12kV output, but I don't believe it because the label says different. Avoid it. You can find one for free in an old laser printer or photocopier.

That toner application is probably the closest technology to your concept of an electrostatic brush or wand. Study how laser printers or copiers function using toner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_printing#Charging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge

 

[hutchphd]

As a teenager (50 yrs ago) I built a Van de Graaf generator. Pretty much fun and very educational. Highly recommended

 

[sophiecentaur]

As a teenager (50 yrs ago) I built a Van de Graaf generator. Pretty much fun and very educational. Highly recommended

(Well Jell). What did you do about the ball? That could be the hard bit.

 

[hutchphd]

As I recall it was a second hand (Remco?) toy kit on a red plastic base with maybe a 5 inch chrome steel ball. Not overwhelming but it would put out a three inch arc on a winter day and was fascinating. I did of course build a Leiden jar (I will not detail here) and quickly realized it was likely a lethal object when it discharged with a pretty good audible "snap" I can still remember that the belt motor would audibly slow down when charging the Leiden Jar.

 

[TheGolferman]

Well thank you all for your answers and help... Very helpful and has definitely gotten me on the right track. hopefully I will figure something out, if not at least i'll have fun trying to.
thanks again,
Theo

 

[James Demers]

As I recall it was a second hand (Remco?) toy kit on a red plastic base with maybe a 5 inch chrome steel ball. Not overwhelming but it would put out a three inch arc on a winter day and was fascinating. I did of course build a Leiden jar (I will not detail here) and quickly realized it was likely a lethal object when it discharged with a pretty good audible "snap" I can still remember that the belt motor would audibly slow down when charging the Leiden Jar.

I think I had the same kit. You had to make your own DC motor, by winding the rotor coils. A rubber belt carried charge from a yarn-covered roller to the steel ball at the top of the tower. It was surprising how much charge that thing could accumulate.

 

[sophiecentaur]

a second hand (Remco?) toy kit on a red plastic base with maybe a 5 inch chrome steel ball.

I did some searching and found 'gazing balls' for the garden. They are stainless steel balls of various sizes; shiny and (obvs) long lasting and very reasonable cost. A slight modification to round off the hole in the bottom would not be difficult.

Unfortunately, a VDGG would take up a lot of room and wouldn't be accepted indoors as a permanent fixture and would certainly not fit in my shed.

 

[hutchphd]

I think I had the same kit. You had to make your own DC motor, by winding the rotor coils. A rubber belt carried charge from a yarn-covered roller to the steel ball at the top of the tower. It was surprising how much charge that thing could accumulate.

Yes that was exactly the one. I think the tube part was transparent. Was it Remco? I have never since seen a reference to it (I did do a desultory search for it a few years back). Have you ?

 

[hutchphd]

I did some searching and found 'gazing balls' for the garden. They are stainless steel balls of various sizes; shiny and (obvs) long lasting and very reasonable cost.

I have several gazing balls. Mine are glass and silvered (aluminized) on the inside. Just like a big Christmas ornament complete with hole. I have thought more than once about doing a van de Graaf conversion. I think some foil knurled onto the surface with a little glue would be smooth enough to not initiate arcs. In fact I think I will do it (one gazing ball has lost its silver anyway...it is not that impressive). I should probably tell the cat.

 

[bob012345]

Huh, ok, so not possible. Well thanks for the info. Have a good day !

Of course it is possible. It all depends on the design. A comb is not the optimal design. Just use caution.

 

[Vitina]

The Electrophorus (glorious name, don't you think?) is the most elementary apparatus which uses electrostatic induction to charge things up. You start with a insulating plate on the bottom and you transfer charges (say +) onto it by rubbing with cloth, fur etc.. The second part of the device is a metal plate (often a baking tin on a polythene handle). You lower the plate onto the charged surface and that polarises it. The insulator attracts - charges and repels + charges as far away as they can go on the metal plate. You touch the metal and the + charges all flow through you to ground. You take your finger away and the metal plate is left with an excess of - charges. An electroscope will show the metal plate is charged and sometimes you can get a small spark off it if you discharge it. You repeat the action :polarise ... dump + charges... remove - charged plate etc. etc. The charges on the plastic plate are not affected (it's an insulator) and you have an endless supply of charges. The energy comes from your muscles. Read the wiki link.
There are many alternative setups for this but a large area between charged plate and metal plate and a very small gap gives best results.

There are a number of pieces of apparatus that use induction to build up very high potentials. Look up Whimshurst Machine, which can be used to charge up two Leyden Jars (capacitors) with enough charge to give a nasty shock.

The electrophorus device was used in my 7th grade class in '64. It consisted of a layer of solid sulfur about 3/16 thick on a cast iron plate and aluminum touch plate.
There are a number of devices currently being used industrially that use permanently charged (electret) plastics, the most common is the tiny mic in your phone but can be quite large. Piezo electric ceramics can produce very high voltages (2-30kv) when placed under pressure, or discharged under pressure and released. There used to be a ion gun device that you could squeeze to control static on vinyl records.
A two stage dierod generator, based on the windless (?) Generator uses the first stage to maintain a high (influence) charge to produce better efficiency (30-200kv) with lots of coronal leakage.

 

[sophiecentaur]

A two stage dierod generator,

Looks very similar to a Whimshurst machine to me. Deadly device when coupled to a couple of Leyden jars. Shouldn't be allowed near nasty little schoolboys!

the windless (?) Generator

Do you have a link to that? Low windspeed is always a problem for magnet - based wind turbine generators. However, the high volts / high impedance involved could limit a practical application,

 

[Vitina]

Looks very similar to a Whimshurst machine to me. Deadly device when coupled to a couple of Leyden jars. Shouldn't be allowed near nasty little schoolboys!

Do you have a link to that? Low windspeed is always a problem for magnet - based wind turbine generators. However, the high volts / high impedance involved could limit a practical application,

My bad, we would use Whimshurst and windless (referring to any crank driven pulley like an old water well) interchangeably.
Back to first stage of dierod charges stationary induction plates instead of Leyden Jars. This maintains high constant voltage on induction plates and give improved efficiency.
Now if you want something hand held that can produce 60 to 200kv an electronic step up (flyback) xformer supplying 10 to 30kv feeding a 15 to 20 stage cascade does this. These are used in electrostatic paint systems. And a number of examples are on YouTube.

 

[sophiecentaur]

My bad, we would use Whimshurst and windless

I was confused by the term "windless" until I realized that you meant "windlass". I was assuming that you had means operation without (or with very little) wind. Many wind turbines pack up at low wind speeds.

And a number of examples are on YouTube.

A link would be useful. I'm amazed that there's not a perfectly good electronic source of HV, for paint deposition. Why involve motor and rotating bits?

 

[Vitina]

From lexico.com
A windlass for raising and lowering a bucket in a well. Origin. Late Middle English; earliest use found in Promptorium Parvulorum. Word of the day.
I use the term for pretty much any crank or pulley operated electrostatic machine that rotates.
I maintained electrostatic paint systems for a number of years.
First, all conductive materials had to be grounded or fully isolated, and all wiring power limited.
Guns using solvent based paint was directly charged up to 100kv and 200na (nanoamps).
Hv system used flyback xformer feeding a 20 stage cascade (voltage multiplyer).
Hand held sprayers used a small air driven generator supplying 24 volts to a similar circuit. These were about 14 inches long and used a grounding hose as air supply.

Powder coat systems reversed this by charging the item to be coated. The powder takes on the opposite charge by its nature, see "triboelectric series".
Waterborne paint used an induced charge system, passing spray tip in a charged insulated collar.
I have seen other variations of these.
I used the cascade from one of these to produce a 2.5 inch spark from a 3 inch diameter s steel float as a classroom demonstrator.