Strange Observation of Ink in Ball Point Pen

[zorro]

I observed something odd this evening.
When I inverted my ball point pen (writing side upwards-perpendicular to the ground level), there was no change in the level of ink. To my surprise, the ink started coming downwards (towards the open end of the refill) when I wrote with it ( inverted ) on an inverted book. If gravity is the reason for this, then why the ink did not move downwards in the first case?
thanks

 

[abc007]

try this inverted ball point pen on evening and come on the morning to see what will happen.
actually you will see ink go downward away from the point pen.
this happen because the ink of your point pen has high viscosity which will prevent ink from moving easily.
moreover, if you see the tube of ink you will see it is close from other side.

 

[zorro]

Please make it clear I did not get you

 

[Andy Resnick]

I observed something odd this evening.
When I inverted my ball point pen (writing side upwards-perpendicular to the ground level), there was no change in the level of ink. To my surprise, the ink started coming downwards (towards the open end of the refill) when I wrote with it ( inverted ) on an inverted book. If gravity is the reason for this, then why the ink did not move downwards in the first case?
thanks

I wonder if it's because you were letting air in as you rolled the ball.

 

[pallidin]

I wonder if it's because you were letting air in as you rolled the ball.

That's my take on it as well.

 

[zorro]

Thanks...that is a satisfying explanation :)

 

[JDługosz]

The vibration might have something to do with it, too.

 

[zorro]

Vibration of what?
the ball is smooth and doesnot impart vibrations to the pen.

 

[Borek]

When you write pen is slightly moved/shaken, these are vibrations JD mentioned.

 

[sophiecentaur]

On this small scale of things, the inter-molecular (electric) forces may well dominate and gravity may be of secondary importance. The action of the ball on the paper may have been to draw the ink up out of the tube (pull) and overcome any 'weight' forces.

 

[Borek]

On this small scale of things, the inter-molecular (electric) forces may well dominate and gravity may be of secondary importance.

Just checked with some random ball pen that I had on my desk - it worked upside down for about 15 seconds, then stopped. It works OK again now. In my earlier experience that's nothing unusual, so I tend to think you are wrong.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I think that the rotating ball draws a small amount of air in and that "bubble' can lose the effect of the tension in the fluid ink so it stops flowing onto the paper.
"Space Pens" and the patented Papermate 'pump' system keep a small amount of positive pressure inside which stops air being drawn in. So they work upside down more reliably.

 

[Borek]

I think that the rotating ball draws a small amount of air in and that "bubble' can lose the effect of the tension in the fluid ink so it stops flowing onto the paper.

Could be - but as it works differently depending on the pen position, obviously gravity plays an important role.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I wouldn't disagree with that but it's only of the same order as the other forces or else no ball point pen would work upside down(?). I imagine, for instance, that a pen with a very wide bore ink tube would be more susceptible (as, indeed, are normal 'ink' pens).

 

[Borek]

We can do an international experiment - if anyone has a ball pen near by, please take a piece of paper and check how long the ball pen writes upside down

 

[zorro]

I think that the rotating ball draws a small amount of air in and that "bubble' can lose the effect of the tension in the fluid ink so it stops flowing onto the paper.

The ball point pens are designed in such a way that the tiny ball does not allow any air flow inwards (sealed). If air had flown in through the nib, it would result in drying of ink which is not the case. How do you explain this?

 

[sophiecentaur]

The ball point pens are designed in such a way that the tiny ball does not allow any air flow inwards (sealed). If air had flown in through the nib, it would result in drying of ink which is not the case. How do you explain this?

I agree with that, in principle, but, in practice, pens do stop writing and that has to be because a void forming behind the ball when inverted. In fact it takes a finite time (more than one rotation of the ball) to stop writing, which implies that the effect isn't just due to a sudden change in pressure. I thing this must imply that there must be some finite amount of air admitted. Remember, you don't need a lot- just enough to break the capillary attraction. I do know that cheap ball points need to be stored ball-down or they will dry / clog the ball and stop working permanently. It really is a brilliant bit of modern design, though, even down to the texture of the rolling ball surface and the consistency of the ink.
As for the drying ink problem, the amount of air admitted would be very small -and only when the ball was rolling - so evaporation would be negligible.
Fountain pens do dry and clog eventually and need to be flushed with more ink. Not that I've used one for a few decades.

 

[pallidin]

OK, well, my papermate disposable pen has a small air hole on it's side near the nib. The rear end of the external tube is sealed. I've also seen this on all clear plastic Bic pens we all know and love.
The reason is, of course, simple. Writing removes ink which, in a sealed container, would eventually create a vacuum that would not allow any more ink flow.

 

[Danger]

Writing removes ink which, in a sealed container, would eventually create a vacuum that would not allow any more ink flow.

I've never figured out how "cartridge pens" overcame that. (Not that I've even seen one since 1967.) I don't know if they exist any more, but they were what we had to use in school when we switched up from pencils. The nib was like that of a fountain pen, but accepted a plastic tube of ink which plugged into the back of it. They weren't vented, but seemed to work until the cartridge was empty. Fountain pens avoided the problem by using a collapsable rubber bladder to hold the ink.
I'm wondering if part of the reason for the hole in a Bic is based upon the same reason that caps on aerosol cans have a vent—to keep the cap from blowing off during transport to a higher altitude than that of the manufacturing site.

 

[pallidin]

Danger, I could be wrong, but I think that the sealed "cartridge pen" inserts are pressurized.

 

[Danger]

Danger, I could be wrong, but I think that the sealed "cartridge pen" inserts are pressurized.

I hadn't considered that possibility. Good thought. (In my defense, I was 11 years old the last time I used one. )

 

[pallidin]

Yeah, I was a young one too at that time.
Perhaps some "pen" expert can jump in and explain it all to us!

 

[Sakha]

Nothing better than some physics break when doing some biology labs

My pen (BIC of course) wrote for about 7 seconds upside down. The interesting thing for me is that if I held the pen upside down for a minute, and then started to write upside down, it still did around 6 seconds.
My guess cohesion and adhesion are the key point here.

 

[Danger]

Interesting idea, Sakha. I'd always thought that it was purely a combination of gravity and capillary action, but you make good sense.

 

[Sakha]

I'm not sure but I think capillary action is very related to adhesion and cohesion, can anyone confirm this?

 

[zorro]

I'm not sure but I think capillary action is very related to adhesion and cohesion, can anyone confirm this?

Yes, you are right.
Capillary rise takes place if the adhesive force is greater than cohesive force.
Capillary fall takes place if cohesive force is greater than adhesive force.

 

[Danger]

Thanks, Abdul.
I'm going to admit total ignorance here, however, and ask for clarification. Since I don't have a science background, I have to rely upon my understanding of the language. Might I assume that "adhesion" refers to the tendency of the ink to cling to the tube and tip, while "cohesion" deals with the attraction of the ink particles for each other?

 

[Borek]

Danger, I could be wrong, but I think that the sealed "cartridge pen" inserts are pressurized.

That would mean leaks (more like squirts) after the cartridge was put into place, I think they would be useless.

 

[zorro]

Might I assume that "adhesion" refers to the tendency of the ink to cling to the tube and tip, while "cohesion" deals with the attraction of the ink particles for each other?

Your assumption is absolutely correct. Adhesive forces operate between dissimilar molecular species (here ink and the tube) and Cohesive forces operate between similar molecules (between ink particles).

 

[Sakha]

The scenario that I can put up is that once you start writing upside down, after a few second you consume the ink that is just below the ball and there is a small space of air between ball and the rest of the ink, and the capillary action isn't enough to overcome this.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Are you saying that the air gets in there because of ('negative') hydrostatic pressure of the ink column or because it is 'dragged in' by the action of the rolling ball?
It seems to me that what goes on just behind the ball is quite complicated.

btw, I don't think the school kids' Ink Cartridges can be pressurised. When connected, and the stopper / ball at the mouth is pushed in, nothing actually squirts out. If it did, then there would be an excellent weapon for the kids and they don't use cartridges as a weapon! They manage to get it all over their fingers, though - something that the ball point pen is less prone to.

 

[Sakha]

Are you saying that the air gets in there because of ('negative') hydrostatic pressure of the ink column or because it is 'dragged in' by the action of the rolling ball?
It seems to me that what goes on just behind the ball is quite complicated.

I don't know what you mean with hydrostatic pressure. But I was saying that once you start writing upside down, after a few seconds you consume the ink that is just below the ball, so now there is a small gap of air between the ball and the ink column, so the ball isn't 'picking up' more ink as it rolls.

 

[Danger]

When connected, and the stopper / ball at the mouth is pushed in, nothing actually squirts out.

Ball...? Stopper...? What on Earth are you referring to?
This must be some newfangled version of the thing that I'm talking about. Mine used a totally sealed plastic tube. There was an input needle built into the base of the nib, which punctured whichever end of the tube you inserted. (The best analogy that I can think of is the vacuum blood-sample needle setups that you use in a medical clinic.)

 

[Borek]

Ball...? Stopper...? What on Earth are you referring to?
This must be some newfangled version of the thing that I'm talking about. Mine used a totally sealed plastic tube. There was an input needle built into the base of the nib, which punctured whichever end of the tube you inserted. (The best analogy that I can think of is the vacuum blood-sample needle setups that you use in a medical clinic.)

I have seen both cartridges close the way you described and cartridges closed the way sophiecentaur described - they had a plastic tube at the end but instead of being sealed with a piece of plastic, there was a small plastic ball inside the tube - and when you installed the cartridge ball was forced inside. Same effect, but once the cartridge was empty you could open it and take the ball for... whatever. I recall having several in a box when I was a teenager.

 

[Danger]

I recall having several in a box when I was a teenager.

You must be a hell of a lot younger than you look.
I've never seen such a thing.

 

[Borek]

Remember I live good 8000 kilometers away from you, this is so far that it makes strange things to time.

Actually these with balls were earlier than those just sealed. One day there was no ball in the cartridge, that was a shock I am still fighting PTSD.

 

[Danger]

Remember I live good 8000 kilometers away from you, this is so far that it makes strange things to time.

Actually these with balls were earlier than those just sealed. One day there was no ball in the cartridge, that was a shock I am still fighting PTSD.

Man, every time that you post, I stop and wonder why it is that North Americans ever started telling Polish jokes.

 

[JDługosz]

The "cartridge pen" inserts are not pressurized!

I use, almost exclusively, refillable cartridges called "converters".

When ink is drawn out due to capillary action, air gets in the same way. A sudden drop of pressure, like in air travel, will make the pressure of the air in the ink sack / cartridge to squirt out the ink.

Some pens have snorkels which serve to equalize the pressure. But that is by no means necessary for them to work -- it just makes them easy to fill.

 

[sophiecentaur]

So the air must come in around the sides of the ball? The issue is what forces are making it happen when upside down.
The only difference between the situations upside down and right way up is the difference in hydrostatic pressure, remember. Adhesion and cohesion are independent of gravity.

Also, if you store cheap pens 'ball upwards' they soon refuse even to start to work. There must be a lot more leakeage round the cheap ball.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Ball...? Stopper...? What on Earth are you referring to?
This must be some newfangled version of the thing that I'm talking about. Mine used a totally sealed plastic tube. There was an input needle built into the base of the nib, which punctured whichever end of the tube you inserted. (The best analogy that I can think of is the vacuum blood-sample needle setups that you use in a medical clinic.)

All the kids use the ball/stopper kind these days. Are you sure you're not referring to the Charles Dickens / Bob Cratchett type quill pens which you use on a high stool in Mr Scrooge's Office?

 

[Danger]

All the kids use the ball/stopper kind these days. Are you sure you're not referring to the Charles Dickens / Bob Cratchett type quill pens which you use on a high stool in Mr Scrooge's Office?

Enough out of you, you young whipper-snapper.
I had to use these damned things in school from '65 to '67. At that time, they were absolutely the only option between fountain pens and ball-points. Believe me, I would far prefer that the school had mandated even the cheapest ball-points over those crap cartridge things. I suppose that it was economically significant that we students paid more than $1.25 for those damned pens and a 5-pack of cartridges, rather than the school system shelling out $0.10 each for ball-points.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I left School some time before that, actually, so I must have missed the 'puncturing' variety. It was only about 20 years ago that I started teaching and came across the 'ball' variety. Despite quite a neat design, kids are quite capable of getting in almost as big a mess as they / we used to with conventional fountain pens with a squeezy bulb and a bottle of Parker Quink Blue-Black.

 

[JDługosz]

I generally use Private Reserve brand ink, which is washable. I know I might make a mess, some day, and plan accordingly. Only drawback is getting notes rained on...

(I'm currently writing with a Pelican M600 filled with Visconti brown that has a tiny bit of blue-black added. It has a built-in plunger, not a cartridge at all.)