Stress Tensor: Definition, Ideas & Discussion

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition and properties of the stress tensor, exploring various theoretical and mathematical aspects. Participants share ideas about its symmetry, implications in fluid dynamics, and connections to other mathematical constructs, such as differential forms and the divergence theorem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express that the discussion is speculative and not aimed at establishing a definitive theory of the stress tensor.
  • One participant questions the compatibility of arbitrary additions to the stress tensor with equations of state.
  • Another participant notes that the Navier-Stokes equation remains unchanged if pressure is modified by a function of time.
  • A participant proposes a connection to the ideal gas law, suggesting a relationship between pressure and volume.
  • Concerns are raised about whether setting the pressure of a vacuum to zero is sufficient or if a more elegant criterion exists.
  • Discussion includes the divergence of the stress tensor and its role in converting surface integrals to volume integrals.
  • Participants assert that the stress tensor is symmetric and discuss its implications for surface forces within a medium.
  • One participant references Landau's work on the topic, emphasizing the role of surface forces and the divergence of the stress tensor.
  • There is a debate about the notation used for the stress tensor and its relation to antisymmetric forms, with some participants clarifying their positions.
  • One participant introduces a correspondence between different tensor notations, leading to confusion about the nature of the stress tensor.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of integrating tensor densities to express physical laws in a coherent manner.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the notation and definitions related to the stress tensor, with no clear consensus reached on the appropriateness of certain mathematical constructs or the implications of symmetry.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of tensors and their roles in physical laws, as well as the implications of using different mathematical notations.

wrobel
Science Advisor
Insights Author
Messages
1,276
Reaction score
1,068
Inspired by the closed thread about pressure:) Here is some of my fantasies about a definition of the stress tensor. Nothing here claims to be a correct theory but just as a matter for discussion.
 

Attachments

Physics news on Phys.org
I am not comfortable with coordinate free notation, so my comment might be inappropriate.

I have not been exposed to arbitrary additions to the stress tensor. Would you expand on what this means? It seems incompatible with equations of state.
 
for example, the Navier-Stokes equation is not changed if you replace p with p+f(t)
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dextercioby
I am thinking of something like the ideal gas law, PV=nRT.
 
then in my definition ##\tilde\omega## should be chosen such that this equality holds
 
Is setting the pressure of a vacuum equal to zero sufficient? Is there a more elegant (probably thermodynamic) criterion?
 
The divergence of the stress tensor comes in when the divergence theorem is use to convert from a surface integral to a volume integral.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dextercioby
The stress tensor is symmetric rather than antisymmetric. It corresponds to a surface force of adjacent parts of the medium. This force is given by
$$F_l=\int_A \mathrm{d}^2 f_k \sigma_{kl},$$
where ##\mathrm{d}^2 f_k## is the surface-normal vector and ##\sigma_{kl}=\sigma_{lk}## the stress tensor.

In relativistic physics it's the space-space part of the energy-momentum tensor (up to a sign).

The pressure of a fluid is a special case, here ##\sigma_{kl}=-p \delta_{kl}##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: JD_PM and etotheipi
This Landau did show nicely in volume seven. Here's basically just a repeat of his argumentation; the force exerted on any portion of the body by the rest of the body is purely a surface force due to the short range of intermolecular forces. Thus the body force density ##F_i## must be a divergence ##\partial \sigma_{ik} / \partial x_k##, because when integrated over a volume ##\Omega## this is transformed into an integral of ##\sigma_{ik} df_k## over ##\partial \Omega##.

The moment acting on the portion ##\Omega## due to the internal stresses is\begin{align*}

M_{i} = \int_{\Omega} (\mathbf{r} \times \mathbf{F})_i dV &= \int_{\Omega} \epsilon_{ijk} x_j \frac{\partial \sigma_{kl}}{\partial x_l} dV \\

&= \epsilon_{ijk}\int_{\Omega} \frac{\partial}{\partial x_l} (x_j \sigma_{kl}) dV - \int_{\Omega} \epsilon_{ijk} \delta_{jl} \sigma_{kl} dV \\

&= \epsilon_{ijk} \oint_{\partial \Omega} x_j \sigma_{kl} df_l - \int_{\Omega} \epsilon_{ijk} \sigma_{kj} dV

\end{align*}so if ##\mathbf{M}## is to be purely a surface integral then the second integrand has to vanish identically i.e. ##\epsilon_{ijk} \sigma_{kj} = 0##, which happens if ##\sigma_{ij} = \sigma_{ji}## (i.e. then ##\epsilon_{ijk} \sigma_{kj} = \epsilon_{ikj} \sigma_{jk} = - \epsilon_{ijk} \sigma_{jk} = - \epsilon_{ijk} \sigma_{kj}## and thus as with any contraction of a symmmetric and antisymmetric part ##\epsilon_{ijk} \sigma_{kj} = 0##). So the stress tensor must be symmetric.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: JD_PM, wrobel and vanhees71
  • #10
vanhees71 said:
The stress tensor is symmetric rather than anti symmetric
I did not say that the stress tensor is anti symmetric
 
  • #11
Then I don't understand your notation. For me the wedge product is antisymmetric (as in Cartan's calculus of alternating (differential) forms).
 
  • #12
I did not say that $$\omega_{ij}^k$$ is a stress tensor. I said about the correspondence. In the standard Euclidean coordinates this correspondence looks like
$$\omega^i_{12}=\sigma ^i_3,\quad \omega_{23}^i= \sigma_1^i,\quad \omega_{31}^i= \sigma_2^i$$
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: etotheipi
  • #13
That doesn't make sense either. Again a stress tensor is a symmetric 2nd-rank tensor (field). It's meaning together with the standard proof that it's a symmetric tensor is nicely explained in @etotheipi 's posting #9.
 
  • #14
I corrected my previous post little bit
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: etotheipi and vanhees71
  • #15
Now it makes sense, but your ##\omega_{ab}^c## are not called "stress" usually.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: etotheipi
  • #16
vanhees71 said:
Now it makes sense, but your ##\omega_{ab}^c## are not called "stress" usually.
sure
 
  • #17
Ohhh, the ##n## in ##\omega^n_{ij}## is an index too! That would explain why you said it had ##9## instead of ##3## independent components, haha. I was very confused 😄
 
  • #18
the correspondence ##\omega_{ij}^k\leftrightarrow\sigma_{sr}## resembles the Hodge star
 
  • #19
But "Hodging" makes only sense for alternating forms too.

It's very unusual to introduce your ##\omega_{ij}^k##'s. In some way you seem to want to incorporate the ##\mathrm{d}^2 \vec{f}##'s into the definition of the stress tensor, but usually what one wants are tensor (densities) to be integrated, and that's for a good reason: It's the way to express all physical laws in terms of local field equations, which is the most natural language of relativistic physics.
 
  • #20
vanhees71 said:
It's very unusual to introduce your 's
Sure! And I do not propose to use ##\omega## instead of ##\sigma## I just try to formalize the mathematical part of the topic. We want to have the force as an integral over boundary. Ok, but we can integrate differential forms only. Take the form ##\omega##. Due to the Riemann metric we have a canonic isomorphism between the space of tensors of type ##\omega## and the space of tensors of type ##\sigma##. Etc
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dextercioby, vanhees71 and etotheipi

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
5K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K