Structural integrity and partial vacuums

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the structural integrity of a hollow torus designed to operate under partial vacuum conditions. Participants explore various calculations related to material failure points, friction, pressure changes from leaks, and boiling point variations with pressure changes. The conversation includes both theoretical and practical aspects of the design process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks formulas to calculate the failure point of materials used in the torus, suggesting that the structural integrity can be related to the geometry of circles.
  • Another participant raises concerns about potential failure points, particularly at welds or attachment methods, and emphasizes the need for knowledge in strength of materials and stress loading.
  • Friction calculations are noted to be complex, with one participant suggesting that fluid dynamics might be relevant and expressing doubt that a single formula could encompass all variables.
  • There is a discussion about how the change in pressure from a leak would depend on the volume of the torus, with one participant asserting that leaks should be pressure dependent rather than volume dependent.
  • A participant mentions the need to calculate the change in boiling point in relation to pressure deviations, expressing frustration with the lack of accessible resources for self-calculation.
  • Free CAD software recommendations are provided, with a suggestion to check system requirements and avoid alpha versions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and expertise regarding the project, with some agreeing on the complexity of the calculations involved while others emphasize the need for further research and learning. There is no consensus on specific formulas or methods to be used, and multiple viewpoints on the nature of friction and leaks are presented.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential misunderstanding of strength of materials and fluid dynamics concepts, as well as the reliance on varying definitions of terms like "drag" and "leak" in the context of pressure and volume.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for hobbyists and learners interested in structural engineering, fluid dynamics, and thermodynamics, particularly those working on projects involving vacuum systems and material strength calculations.

Havoko_o
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I have several questions that are related to something I am designing. I am having a hard time finding the correct formulas I need, so I am here :D

Anything will be helpful, from general topics/ideas to get me in the right direction, to specific formulas. I do not mind abstract ideas, this is a hobby and learning everything is more fun than the actual project :)

1. I am creating a hollow torus (circular pipe) that is a partial vacuum. I need to be able to calculate the failure point of any material used to create the torus (steel, acrylic, etc). I would imagine this to be the structural integrity of a circle, given that a torus is a series of circles.

2. Inside the torus will be an object that will be nearly the same diameter as the inside that moves and is lubricated. I need to calculate the friction/drag between the object and the inside of the torus. Ideally, this would be a formula that I could use with any given area so that I can chart the change in friction with the change in size.

3. A variation of this that would also be helpful is to calculate the friction of wheel-object or wheel-wheel contact on a tracked system.

4. I would like to be able to calculate the gain in pressure from leaks. For instance, if the inside of the torus is 0.02 atm, and the outside is 1 atm, how many atm per second would enter into a hole that is 1 square mm.

5. Last but not least, how do you calculate the change in boiling point in relation to pressure deviating from 1 atm? The only thing I can find is calculators do to it for me, and I want to calculate it myself.

Edit: One more thing - Are there any free CAD programs that would do structural calculations for me? I'm using sketchup currently.
 
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Hi.
I don't have much to offer, but I'll mention a couple of things. Regarding failure points, my main concern would be your welds (or other attachment methods).
As for free software, I always recommend Source Forge. Just make sure that you check the system requirements before downloading, and don't take an Alpha version.
 
Your torus could fail along the hoop, but also along the inner radius.
You need knowledge of strength of materials, stress loading, falure ... .

The friction will be complicated. Try fluid dynamics.
I doubt if one simple formula can be formulated to calculate the friction/size.

Change in pressure from a leak would depend on the volume of your torus.

Look up vapour pressure for a liquid.
I did the Wiki one for you:
http://www.motivate.maths.org/content/wonderful-world-gyroscopes/gyroscopic-effect

If someone else adds more then great, but since you are asking "how is it done" then I am assuming your project might be overloading your present level of understanding of strength of materials, fluid dynamics, ... You will have to plug away and do some research and learning on several topics.
 
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hmm

This project is completely beyond my knowledge, but only because I choose it to be. I'm purposely using this project to learn. I could do this by trial and error, but I would prefer to know why something works. For instance, I didn't know much about thermodynamics, so I spent quite some time looking that up. By doing so, I realized there is a large amount of bad information out on the web. My last question about heat of vaporization is a good example. I came here hoping for some guidance, not asking how it is done. I only included some specifics so that readers know which direction to point me.
Thank you for giving me a topic name, that is what I need :)

I haven't had the time to look it up yet, but as for the drag, the amount of drag should be directly proportional to the touching surface area. A leak should not be volume dependent, it should be pressure dependent. Volume should only effect the rate of exchange when at equilibrium. I'm slowly working through teaching myself, but it never hurts to ask for help :)
 

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