Suicide and Potential: A Moral Debate

[Mattius_]

I was just wondering, If a person who has great potential, and great ability to change the world for the better decides to commit suicide, is it wrong? Isn't it his decision to make? Should he have to kill himself with the guilt of 'what ifs' on his mind, or should he be able to kill himself not caring about the potential and ability's he had?

Does he have to feel guilty about leaving his family behind and causing grief and turmoil? Isnt it fair for him to end his own pain? Should he leave a suicide note telling his family he did this for himself, selfishly? or will that just create more grief, I don't know, was just a question I had on my mind.

 

[BoulderHead]

With that avatar, I'm hoping you're not planning to flip off the world !

 

[Polly]

Why does the person feel suicidal?

 

[atomicmouse]

Suicide is obviously wrong. Life is a gift that must not be taken lightly. Our life is not our own to dispose of when we wish. Each of us is part of a greater whole whether we realize it or not.

 

[BoulderHead]

Can you prove any of those assumptions ?

[edit]
Oops, I forgot my manners!

Welcome to PF !

 

[12345]

^ life is a gift which once you lose it, it will never come back.

 

[olde drunk]

IMHO, except in the case of terminal illness and pain, suicide is a sad form of surrender. "I have so much to offer, but the world won't let me show it. So, i will quit and that will teach you." A grotesque expression of anger; turned inward.

Is it wrong?? Not for us to judge. If it wasn't a choice within freewill, suicide wouldn't be possible.

Personally, i do not think that anything written or said will diminished the negative effect on the family (all loved ones). Each will deal with their individual sense of guilt as best they can. Isn't that the original purpose? punish those that won't let you do what you believe you should. again, a poor way to express anger.

love and peace,
olde drunk

 

[Mattius_]

With that avatar, I'm hoping you're not planning to flip off the world !

I have this avatar specifically so that people will label me... And yea, I like rap too.

Why does the person feel suicidal?

I don't think it is relevant why, the only thing that matters is the right to carry out the act, and from what I think, nothing should stop it from happening because the person doesn't have to care whether or not other people think negatively because it won't matter when he's gone.

Suicide is obviously wrong. Life is a gift that must not be taken lightly. Our life is not our own to dispose of when we wish. Each of us is part of a greater whole whether we realize it or not.

Do you have any reasoning? I would like to see some.

^ life is a gift which once you lose it, it will never come back.

Your right about it not coming back, but if someone viewed life as not so much of a gift, and maybe a little more as a burden, then wouldn't you concede that living once would be an advantage?

"I have so much to offer, but the world won't let me show it. So, i will quit and that will teach you."

More like, its a shame it had to come to this, but there is no other solution. The only anger in this scenario is trivial, and the person who is considering the final solution knows it, so there is no unsettled anger in this equation.

Anyways, I really can't see any reason in this scenario for a person to keep trying, because if he does kill himself, makes it clean, thus lessening the shock to the family, then I believe time can heal the rest of the wounds.

The only thing that is bothering me in the scenario is the what-ifs that he could of had in the future, but then again, as I said, the current burdens in my opinion, are too much to yield an optomistic future.

 

[BoulderHead]

I have this avatar specifically so that people will label me... And yea, I like rap too.

Ok, but so you know; I wasn’t attempting to label, only curious if the avatar and the nature of this post might share a commonality. By "flip off the world" I was alluding to committing suicide. I listen to rap too.

I don't think it is relevant why, the only thing that matters is the right to carry out the act, and from what I think, nothing should stop it from happening because the person doesn't have to care whether or not other people think negatively because it won't matter when he's gone.

I support the right to commit suicide and believe one of the things which give man uniqueness is the ability to view life as a product of choice.

Anyways, I really can't see any reason in this scenario for a person to keep trying, because if he does kill himself, makes it clean, thus lessening the shock to the family, then I believe time can heal the rest of the wounds.

I don’t know what you mean by “makes it clean”.

 

[Mattius_]

Just for the record I am not talking about myself, this is only a scenario.

And by clean I mean pills.

 

[loseyourname]

Our life is not our own to dispose of when we wish.

If my life is not mine, why do I refer to it as "my" life?

 

[FoxNax]

Suicide is obviously wrong. Life is a gift that must not be taken lightly. Our life is not our own to dispose of when we wish. Each of us is part of a greater whole whether we realize it or not.

Never say obviously because nothing is obvious, no matter how clear it may be to you, it is not always obvious to everyone else, especially if you yourself are wrong.

Life is precious and it is a gift that has been given to us, it is up to us how we use this gift and the gift giver only hopes we use it wisely.
Suicide is a quick way out, an easy way to solve your problems. But imagine, if your world was falling down around you and you had nothing left, would you really feel like carrying on and living another second let alone another day. Imagine you have so much sorrow and anger inside of you that it chokes you so badly every time you take a breath and you can't swallow because it hurts too much. Wouldn't you just want it to stop right there and then? And suicide, wouldn't that be an easy way to stop it?

However much I understand that reasons for suicide and I feel so bad for these people for thinking about ending their lives, I believe suicide shouldn't be an option. There is always another way out, there is always someone to turn to. Even if you don't know them and if everyone has turned their backs on you, their should be someone out there in the world that understands how you feel.

If someone I knew was to commit suicide, no matter how clean, I'd want to know why. I'd want to know what was so terrible that they were goign through that they felt the need to end it. I'd want to know why they coudln't tell me or someone closer and why they couldn't talk about it.

You may think you're really bad off, you may hate your life, but no matter how bad your life is, there is always someone worse off. I don't think leaving your family behind tops off this reason. There is someone worse off than you, with such a bad life and such bad health and so on and suicide hasn't even crossed their mind, if they can survive it, why can't you? If they'd been given the chance you had in life, they could of done something worthwhile, they could of gone a lot further and they could of handled your problems because you may think you know what suffering is, but never tell a blind man you don't get to see other countries because he could give you a list so much bigger than yours about what he doesn't see. Instead of complaining about the bad things in life, take the time to smell the roses and look at the good points.

When thinking about suicide, I say instead of a knife, use a pen, instead of blood, use ink and instead of your own body, use paper and write down everything you feel. Make a diary, may seem childish but if you can get these feelings down on paper, it can lighten your load, just a little bit but it can and if your load is lightened, you can carry on another day.

Pain can stop. Being dead can't.

 

[pallidin]

I am against suicide.
The reason I feel that way is that suicide shouts to the entire universe, seen and unseen, that no hope is possible and that I refuse any further chance of that hope.
As long as I am alive, no matter the pain, no matter the circumstance, there IS hope.

 

[THANOS]

It's a choice. A very hard choice when you let life taken you to that point also. It is not an easy choice. It's just less hard then the choice of making things right.

What is required to make things right? Confronting those who you love or those who aren't helping you enjoy life. But one person who isn't helping you enjoy life is yourself. And making things right requires you to confront yourself. Not with anger but with compassion and understanding.

But if you ever get to the point in life where suicide becomes a choice. Why not give up trying to stay in the role your family and people around creates for you and start doing differnt things and try to enjoy life.

I've never got to the point of suicide mainly because i do not believe that suicide is a choice i will allow myself to make. Altough i was pretty down once and felt like leaving. But instead of giving up i just changed my role. You'll be surprised that it doesn't take long for people to adjust to the new you. Altough some people will try to change you back and might even be your friend. You just have to understand that if they keep trying then they are not reliable enough to be an important part of your life.

So in other words you have potential no matter who you are. You just have to create it.

 

[Zantra]

Suicide is a choice. It may not be the most desirable choice, but our ability to make that choice is what makes us human. Wrong and right is subjective. Suicide may seem wrong to you and I, but right to the person choosing to do it.

Personally, I believe that just as it's a woman's right to choose to have an abortion, it's also someone's right to choose to die- providing they are of sound mind, and not mentally incompetent. Of course defining "mentally incompetent" can be tricky.

If someone is terminally ill,and in a great deal of pain- to the point where death would be preferrable, who are we to dictate that they should live on and continue to suffer in the name of righteousness? Take away that right, and you take away personal freedom of choice- now assisting is another thing- which I won't touch. But bottom line is that freedom of personal choice- including the choice to die- is our own, and shouldn't be intervened.

 

[Stockman]

Yea, I agree, suicide is a choice. I was thinking of suicide bombing when I saw this thread. I wonder how suicide bombers is thinking. I don't know but it looks like most of them are religous, and they'll have to respect life so I wonder why they're doing it. Are they trying to justify their killed friends by killing other. Are they really beliving that their god will take them to a paradise or is it just a reason for killing people? Any thoughts?

 

[pallidin]

Yea, I agree, suicide is a choice. I was thinking of suicide bombing when I saw this thread. I wonder how suicide bombers is thinking. I don't know but it looks like most of them are religous, and they'll have to respect life so I wonder why they're doing it. Are they trying to justify their killed friends by killing other. Are they really beliving that their god will take them to a paradise or is it just a reason for killing people? Any thoughts?

The thought process of a suicide bomber is certainly different from that of an individual contemplating "normal" suicide.
A suicide bomber often has complex and bizarre idealogical perspectives(usually developed through militant religous association), which makes them perhaps the most dangerous individuals outside of serial killers.

 

[Namloh2000]

That one should be able to end life before the chance arrives to reproduce, I don't suspect that suicidal tendency (least before children-begetting) Should be around too long. Unless of course it is a result of non-genetic factor (which it very-well may be).

Regardless, do you wear a seatbelt? Why? Why should one not have complete control over one's self completely. Stated in a previous post, without a doubt is suicide a beauty in that it makes life a choice. But what angers me more so about this "choice of self" argument is that I may not ride without a seatbelt, use narcotics, etc. (not that I wan't to, but that I feel I should be able to?)

Oh well. A moral is a moral is a moral. Hooray for orthodoxy!

 

[12345]

Your right about it not coming back, but if someone viewed life as not so much of a gift, and maybe a little more as a burden, then wouldn't you concede that living once would be an advantage?

^ You should realize that you are not the only one going through tough times there are the less fortunate(like the poor) that suffer more than you do.
but it is true some think that dying is the best part of our journey, like me.

 

[zippit]

Hume's Thoughts on Suicide [Paraphrased]

Hume paraphrased: taken from http://academics.vmi.edu/psy_dr/killing_yourself.htm

Hume (1711-1776): Suicide cannot be a crime against God or the natural law, because (a) God gave us the ability and, sometimes, the desire to commit suicide, (b) it is not wrong to go against nature by building dams, diverting rivers, etc., and (c) it is not wrong to interfere in matters of life and death, otherwise life-saving surgery would be wrong. Nor can suicide be a crime against the community because being a hermit is not wrong and suicide just takes this withdrawal from society one step further. Finally, suicide cannot be a crime against the self because the individual knows best what is good for him or her.

 

[Deeviant]

I don't think I would bothering arguing if suicide was wrong or not. But it sure as hell is stupid.

 

[pmb_phy]

I was just wondering, If a person who has great potential, and great ability to change the world for the better decides to commit suicide, is it wrong?

Why all the qualifications? What constitutes such a potential? Is a nurse in a cancer ward in a hospital such a person? They are very important and influential people in my opinion.

Isn't it his decision to make? Should he have to kill himself with the guilt of 'what ifs' on his mind, or should he be able to kill himself not caring about the potential and ability's he had?

That can't be answered in general in my opinion. It requires some specifics. Otherwise you can't make a reliable judgement such as, say, Deeviant has - i.e. he thinks such people are doing something stupid.

Pete

 

[Grizzlycomet]

In my opinion, suicide is extremely stupid, but no, i don't think it is wrong. After all, our lives are our own to control, and if someone finds suicide to be the right solution for his or her life, then that decision is theirs to make, and should not be labelled "wrong", despite how it might seem to other people.

 

[Iron Sun 254]

It's not wrong in the strictest sense of the word but most people who have attempted it and survived are glad they did. People don't do it to end life, they do it to end the pain and ending the life is the side-effect. If you see someone suffering and think they might need help please help them. My wife's cousin commited suicide by hanging himself in the attic and his body wasn't found until a week and a half later. It hurts everyone.

 

[pmb_phy]

In my opinion, suicide is extremely stupid, ...

In what sense? Do you think happy people commit suicide? Do you think that some people kill themselves if they have bad day?

At least consider the possibility that they are in need of help, perhaps medical help. Some people who kill themselves are seriously sick, not stupid. In my opinion that is a misuse of the word "stupid". It really doesn't apply.

Pete

 

[Prometheus]

Some people who kill themselves are seriously sick, not stupid. In my opinion that is a misuse of the word "stupid". It really doesn't apply.

I agree with this.

 

[Entheos]

What about the suicide issue in relation to reincarnation?

Does this affect reinacarnation negatively. Does it change the outcome at all?

For arguments sake, let's assume reincarnation can and does happen, on the premise that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only change form.

Or another possibility.

Could someone's life purpose be to commit suicide. Perhaps in order for that soul to know what it is like to experience this pain/event.

Just trying to think outside the cube.

 

[Grizzlycomet]

In what sense? Do you think happy people commit suicide? Do you think that some people kill themselves if they have bad day?

At least consider the possibility that they are in need of help, perhaps medical help. Some people who kill themselves are seriously sick, not stupid. In my opinion that is a misuse of the word "stupid". It really doesn't apply.

Pete

What I mean is, I think suicide is a stupid solution, and that trying everything one can to get help would be a better one. I am not saying that people who kill themselves are stupid. I you feel it was a bad word to use, or that I used it the wrong way, then I apologize. I meant no offence.

 

[pmb_phy]

What I mean is, I think suicide is a stupid solution, ...

Sorry but I don't know what that means in this context. To me that's almost like telling a man who is falling from 5,000 feet without a parachute that hitting the ground is a stupid solution to his current problem, i.e. stopping. I'm not referring to all suicides mind you. Just certain kinds. I.e. the kinds which are beyond rational control of the person, those which are a result from a sickness. There are, of course, people who off themselves when their boyfriend/gilrfriend dump them. That is truly a stupid solution and in this context I agree.

..and that trying everything one can to get help would be a better one.

That doesn't always work. A good buddy of mine tried many ways to get help and failed. It was the system which failed him since he did what one is supposed to do. Yet he was unable to get help. He later killed himself. It was a very sad and extremely frustrating situation. Especially since none of us had any clue that something was wrong. There were zero outward signs ... except perhaps that he would never get into a serious conversation without turning it into a joke. I kind of wondered if this was his way of hiding some sort of pain. At the time I just thought of him as a non-serious person. But do this date nobody knows why he did what he did.

Pete

 

[Grizzlycomet]

Sorry but I don't know what that means in this context. To me that's almost like telling a man who is falling from 5,000 feet without a parachute that hitting the ground is a stupid solution to his current problem, i.e. stopping. I'm not referring to all suicides mind you. Just certain kinds. I.e. the kinds which are beyond rational control of the person, those which are a result from a sickness. There are, of course, people who off themselves when their boyfriend/gilrfriend dump them. That is truly a stupid solution and in this context I agree.

If we are talking about mental illness, or illness to the point where the person him/herself has no rational control, then of course, I agree, stupid is not the word.

That doesn't always work. A good buddy of mine tried many ways to get help and failed. It was the system which failed him since he did what one is supposed to do. Yet he was unable to get help. He later killed himself. It was a very sad and extremely frustrating situation. Especially since none of us had any clue that something was wrong. There were zero outward signs ... except perhaps that he would never get into a serious conversation without turning it into a joke. I kind of wondered if this was his way of hiding some sort of pain. At the time I just thought of him as a non-serious person. But do this date nobody knows why he did what he did.

Pete

Sorry to hear you lost your friend.
I must say though, although I realize such matters are very, very difficult for the person to discuss, if he did not tell you he had problems, nor give any indication, then he really did not do everything he could to get help. Family and friends would have to have been a very good source for help and support.

 

[pmb_phy]

I must say though, although I realize such matters are very, very difficult for the person to discuss, if he did not tell you he had problems, nor give any indication, then he really did not do everything he could to get help. Family and friends would have to have been a very good source for help and support.

Easy to say, hard to do. He may have found it impossible to do so. In cases such as his its most likely not the kind of thing where friends can help. Serious cases of depression can't be solved by talking to your friends. It mayh have helped him in some small way but I doubt it would have been significant. Nobody can say and I'm not about to sit in judgement of something where I'm completely ignorant about the actual reason. But that's me.

There are other times I see suicide as a humane decision. There are some instances when a person is so ill that the most humane thing do to is to let the person die. For example, a person who has a horrible illness and is not responding to treatment may end up in a hospice. In cases such as this it would be humane to let the person commit suicide rather than suffer in the hospice waiting for death to come.

Pete

 

[pallidin]

It must be a very difficult thing to go through one's own, or another's, terminal disorder. I can think of little more that would be more distressing.
Though I must at some point die, I can only hope that it is sudden or without a great deal of pain and suffering. Regardless of the following comments, I cannot truly say how I might act or react under similar circumstance.
What I will offer is this: I believe there is a component to life apart from our day-to-day living. Call it spiritual, call it whatever.
My point offered is that if we "call" that moment(suicide), than do we not also refuse any available help? Once remanded to death, we remand ourselves to no "possible" recovery. I am against that because I believe in a spiritual component to life, including miracles, and to commit suicide tells me that one does not believe that.
But what do I know! If you are burning alive from some strange accident and you are totally alone with a loaded gun, would you direct it to your head and pull the trigger? Damn, I hope I am never in that circumstance.

 

[Kerrie]

i see suicide for people who are depressed, but otherwise set in life, as a selfish act-it is your responsibility to take charge of your happiness...that probably sounds harsh, but it is the truth...in the instance of someone sufferering from pain or terminal illness, i think it is more justifiable...

 

[Tom McCurdy]

Sucide unless because of physical pain is stupid. People get too involved in emotions and stress. If you were to the point that you are willing to kill yourself, just say my current life is normal and do all the crazy wild stuff you would always want to do but never would because of public opinons. Go live in the forest by yourself if you want -- you ahve nothing to lose I almost see it as a huge oppurtunity to start over. Where else can u go but up/.

 

[eringj]

The conclusion others seem to be coming to here is suicide is okay if it is self-enacted euthanasia, a response to physical pain, but not as a response to emotional pain.

Why? Do we assume emotional pain to have little importance? I don't believe that is the attitude of the majority of posters - this ideal leads logically to the conclusion that rape should be punished according only to the physical injurys sustained.

When someone commits suicide, it is for one of two reasons:
1) death was not intentional; it was a cry for help
2) the suicidal decides that death would be better than life

Dismissing emotional pain as trivial or transient is therefore a mistake; the person in best place to judge considers it overwhelming, and who ever chooses such a final solution to a transient problem? Suicidals do not consider their problems transient. Please don't call these people or their decision 'stupid'. If it can be the right decision for one in physical pain, maybe it is sometimes the right decision for those in psychological pain.

As for those of you who don't consider a person's life their own property, to do with as they wish, I challenge you to justify this perspective without falling back on religious dogma or a functionalist societal view that disregards the wellbeing of human beings.

To conclude: Suicide is always an extreme choice, but not necessarily a 'stupid' one and certainly not morally 'wrong'

 

[Philocrat]

I was just wondering, If a person who has great potential, and great ability to change the world for the better decides to commit suicide, is it wrong? Isn't it his decision to make? Should he have to kill himself with the guilt of 'what ifs' on his mind, or should he be able to kill himself not caring about the potential and ability's he had?

Does he have to feel guilty about leaving his family behind and causing grief and turmoil? Isnt it fair for him to end his own pain? Should he leave a suicide note telling his family he did this for himself, selfishly? or will that just create more grief, I don't know, was just a question I had on my mind.

If you are a 'UNIVERSALIST', yes, Suicide is wrong. You will find this ruling in Kant's 'CATEGORICAL IMPARATIVES', a fixed point on which his moral philosophy rests. In Kant's universalism, suicide is wrong because, according to him, when you do commit one, you rob the rest of the society of 'VALUE'! Another point: Lutwig Wittgenstein spent his entire life contemplating suicide...but in the end (and very cleverly) he never did.

For me suicide is wrong for one fundamental reason:

In our unshakeable resolve and drive to survive, everyone counts, and since no one knows who holds the KEY to that survival, every necessary step or measure taken to preserve life must be ABSOLUTELY adhered to. In this very sense, I could very well pass as a universalist.

PROBLEM: Universalism, though originally necessary and wholly desirable, is incompatible with UTILITARIANISM. Under utilitarian code of conduct, one or a few may commit suicide to save many in a moral dilemma situation. In this very sense, you could quite rightly say or postulate that Universalism is naturally ill-equipped to deal with moral dilemmas that we all encounter in every moment of our lives. However, my own belief is that, even if this were really the case, it is ephemrally so, both in scope and in substance...for in the end universalism will prevail.

 

[Kerrie]

Why? Do we assume emotional pain to have little importance? I don't believe that is the attitude of the majority of posters - this ideal leads logically to the conclusion that rape should be punished according only to the physical injurys sustained.

When someone commits suicide, it is for one of two reasons:
1) death was not intentional; it was a cry for help
2) the suicidal decides that death would be better than life

Dismissing emotional pain as trivial or transient is therefore a mistake; the person in best place to judge considers it overwhelming, and who ever chooses such a final solution to a transient problem? Suicidals do not consider their problems transient. Please don't call these people or their decision 'stupid'. If it can be the right decision for one in physical pain, maybe it is sometimes the right decision for those in psychological pain.

As for those of you who don't consider a person's life their own property, to do with as they wish, I challenge you to justify this perspective without falling back on religious dogma or a functionalist societal view that disregards the wellbeing of human beings.

To conclude: Suicide is always an extreme choice, but not necessarily a 'stupid' one and certainly not morally 'wrong'

thank you for a fresh and more positive perspective...it made me rethink my stand on it...i still believe we are ultimately responsible for our emotional direction in life, but i have to agree after reading your words that suicide is an extreme call for help, not a stupid choice. your compassion for those suffering is to be commended...

 

[Dagenais]

IMHO, except in the case of terminal illness and pain, suicide is a sad form of surrender. "I have so much to offer, but the world won't let me show it. So, i will quit and that will teach you." A grotesque expression of anger; turned inward.

Suicide isn't "surrendering" or taking the easy way out. I would hardly call killing yourself easy. In fact, in my opinion, it takes a lot of courage to commit suicide. Whether it be shooting yourself or jumping to your death.

I've seen someone attempt to commit suicide. He jumped off a pretty high cliff onto railroad tracks. I was sitting in my car enjoying the beautiful view, next to some other people in their cars when this man comes up...and just jumps. He was still alive though, when the ambulance got there.

If these people have the guts to jump to their death or to shoot themselves, they must have the courage to continue life.

 

[mikeee]

Isn't it a natural instinct for us to live? I think that suicide in most cases wrong and is part of some mental problem (other then depression) excluding people suffering of disease and such that are in never ending agony and are destined to die anyways.