Synchronization of Earth clocks

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the synchronization of clocks on the Earth's surface, particularly focusing on the effects of motion and Earth's rotation on timekeeping. Participants explore concepts related to time dilation, simultaneity, and the implications of moving clocks in a non-inertial frame.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that a clock moving in the direction of Earth's rotation will run ahead of a stationary clock after completing a circle, raising questions about time dilation and simultaneity.
  • Another participant posits that the difference in time is due to the "time" traveled in an accelerated frame, emphasizing that the relative speed during movement is crucial.
  • A participant mentions that if a clock is accelerated and then decelerated, it will show less elapsed time compared to a stationary clock, depending on the speed and duration of travel.
  • There is a reference to the Sagnac effect as a potential framework for understanding the time differences observed in moving clocks on a rotating Earth.
  • One participant questions whether a full general relativity (GR) analysis is necessary or if a simpler special relativity (SR) approach suffices, noting that both may yield similar results regarding the clock's movement along an equipotential.
  • Another participant suggests comparing the elapsed times of two accelerating observers, proposing that an inertial observer could help clarify the aging differences between the clocks based on their accelerations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the observed time differences should be classified as time dilation or changes in simultaneity. There is no consensus on the best approach to analyze the situation, with some advocating for a GR perspective while others prefer an SR framework.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the nature of the Earth's rotation and the effects of acceleration on timekeeping. There are unresolved mathematical steps and varying interpretations of the implications of the Sagnac effect and the role of gravity in the analysis.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying relativity, timekeeping in non-inertial frames, and the implications of motion on time as understood in both special and general relativity contexts.

psmitty
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If we have two clocks, one stationary at surface of Earth, and the other one very slowly moved at the surface of Earth, in the direction of Earth rotation, the clock that made the trip should be running ahead of the same stationary clock once it makes a complete circle and stops where it started from (if I got it right).

In an inertial frame, they should remain synchronized at low relative speeds, but on Earth, being a non-inertial frame, no matter how slowly you move a clock, it goes out of sync when you move it.

Also, if you move it half way in one direction, and return it back, it will get back to sync with the stationary one.

Should this be considered as time dilation, some sort of a or change in simultaneity? I mean, for a slowly moving clock, this difference in time seems to be a function of Earth's rotation speed and clock's traveled distance along the surface.

So how do I get this function for time difference?
 
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I'm new to relativity, but this is my understanding.

It is the "time" traveled in an accelerated frame that causes times to differ, not the actual movement direction.

It is only the relative delta of time spent at larger speeds during movement of two clocks with respect to each other that counts

If you accelerate it in order take it around the earth, then decelerate it to stop it, The clock will be slower. If you never decelerated and just did a checkpoint at that time when the clock passed the time difference would be slightly greater because the clock was moving longer at high speed.

If you take off on a round trip to the nearest star and get yourself to relativistic speeds by spending a lot of time accelerating or a lot of energy to accelerate fast, then come back to the same place where you left that clock, the time difference would be much larger. If you wanted to stop over and visit that star (decelerate). The time difference would still be large, but not as large as in the previous case because the subject would spend less time near the speed of light.

In all four cases of the five clocks may have returned at the same time, but all clocks would show different times.
 
psmitty said:
Should this be considered as time dilation, some sort of a or change in simultaneity? I mean, for a slowly moving clock, this difference in time seems to be a function of Earth's rotation speed and clock's traveled distance along the surface.

So how do I get this function for time difference?
Are you looking for a full GR analysis or do you just want to treat the Earth as a rotating massless sphere in flat spacetime? If the latter you might look at analyses of the Sagnac effect which often use rotating frames...pages 102-106 of this book might also be helpful (gives the line element ds^2 in a rotating frame, which can be used to calculate elapsed time along any parametrized curve)...likewise p. 84 of this book gives a "time dilation" formula for [tex]d\tau /dt[/tex] in a rotating frame (rate at which clock time [tex]\tau[/tex] is increasing relative to coordinate time t)
 
JesseM said:
Are you looking for a full GR analysis or do you just want to treat the Earth as a rotating massless sphere in flat spacetime?
I don't think the GR analysis gives a different result than the SR analysis, because the clock is moving along an equipotential. It's just the Sagnac effect.
 
psmitty said:
Should this be considered as time dilation, some sort of a or change in simultaneity? I mean, for a slowly moving clock, this difference in time seems to be a function of Earth's rotation speed and clock's traveled distance along the surface.

So how do I get this function for time difference?
Assuming you are only interested in the special relativity approach we can ignore gravity completely.

Basically you want to compare the elapsed times of two accelerating observers making a loop from event A to B.

The simplest way to do this is to consider a third observer who is inertial, for instance an observer at the center of the Earth. He sees two clocks with two different accelerations going from event A to event B. Then it is simply a matter of calculation to verify that the clock with the least acceleration will age most. Which is the clock that goes against the rotation, because this will reduce the total acceleration.
 

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