Will Teachers Be Allowed to Carry Guns in Schools?

[drankin]

Finally, a school is taking the initiative: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404721,00.html"

After common sense trumps political correctness, I expect this will catch on over the years.

 

[WarPhalange]

I wonder how long before an angry teacher shoots a student, or much more likely a teacher gets shot with his/her own gun by a student.

 

[russ_watters]

I know enough teachers to know this is just a terrible idea, for the reasons WP stated.

edit: and a third: the effect it will have on the classroom environment.

 

[mgb_phys]

Are they going to be trained?
Will there be special shooting rages with the targets really close to the floor?

It's pretty hard to take out more than a couple of kindergarteners, they tend to scatter - I would probably use a grenade.

(ps, anyone who had nuns at school will see this as an improvement)

 

[Dale]

I think it is a good idea. The mass shootings that always turn out so tragically are the ones where only the nut is armed, the ones where someone else was armed always turn out much better.

I wonder how long before an angry teacher shoots a student, or much more likely a teacher gets shot with his/her own gun by a student.

My PhD advisor had a corkboard where he had news clippings about students shooting professors. He was keeping score, which always made me nervous, but it was something like students: 13 to professors: 0 which always made me feel a little better

 

[mgb_phys]

I wonder how long before an angry teacher shoots a student,

No problem - if that happens we just arm the students as well.
Of course it's difficult for a 5year old to hold a 44magnum, so first grade wil have to have some sort of tripod mounted - crew served weapon.

 

[humanino]

I am amazed that one can even consider seriously such a horrible idea.

FYI (and before people call me unaware of reality) I attended "priority high-school" where some students were actually carrying (illegally) handguns, trafficking (not necessarily light) drugs and such, and part of the staff was (unarmed) military. I personally was friend with more than one student who died in such violent context. That does not prevent me from thinking violence is not the right answer to violence. Cultural gaps I guess...

 

[LowlyPion]

Finally, a school is taking the initiative: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404721,00.html"

After common sense trumps political correctness, I expect this will catch on over the years.

I doubt it.

Wait until their liability insurance rates go up.

 

[rootX]

I am amazed that one can even consider seriously such a horrible idea.

I think that's american way of dealing with problems :)

 

[drankin]

I doubt it.

Wait until their liability insurance rates go up.

I'm pretty sure school districts carry their own insurance.

 

[Evo]

This is ridiculous.

A high school I attended for about a month until my parents could get me transferred out of district had so much gang violence that every entrance into the building had metal detectors and armed security guards. After passing through the detectors, you had to move sideways along the hallway (which was blocked so you could only shuffle sideways) with your back against the wall. This stopped killing with guns and most knives, brass knuckles, chains, etc... but didn't help the kid that was thrown out of a third story window. At lunch time police helicopters would circle the school. The Assistant Priciple had armed body guards due to the death threats against him.

So, the way to prevent some nut from walking in with a weapon, is to stop him from walking in with a weapon.

If teachers are allowed guns, by the time a teacher realizes what is happening and can figure out who is shooting, the teacher and most students will probably already be dead. Stupid idea.

 

[drankin]

Until I see a "problem" with teachers shooting students, I'm going to say that it's good idea that teachers carry.

What I DO see is students shooting students as well as teachers, that IS a problem. Teachers carrying will be a deterent for wackos thinking a gun-free zone is a plinking gallery.

 

[Evo]

Until I see a "problem" with teachers shooting students, I'm going to say that it's good idea that teachers carry.

What I DO see is students shooting students as well as teachers, that IS a problem. Teachers carrying will be a deterent for wackos thinking a gun-free zone is a plinking gallery.

Unless the person intending to shoot announces their plans to shoot in order to allow anyone else with a gun time to draw, it will be too late. All of these crazy shooters went in intending to die, knowing someone else has a gun will be no deterent. And more innocent people could be killed in the crossfire.

 

[cristo]

I concur wholeheartedly with Evo: what a terrible idea!

 

[WarPhalange]

Unless the person intending to shoot announces their plans to shoot in order to allow anyone else with a gun time to draw, it will be too late. All of these crazy shooters went in intending to die, knowing someone else has a gun will be no deterent. And more innocent people could be killed in the crossfire.

Close, but I'd go a step further. I WOULD tell people my intentions right before I did it. Why? Suddenly you have several people with guns running around. The cops have no idea what's going on and who's the baddy. Lots of chaos and confusion and huge fallout over the whole debacle.

 

[drankin]

Unless the person intending to shoot announces their plans to shoot in order to allow anyone else with a gun time to draw, it will be too late. All of these crazy shooters went in intending to die, knowing someone else has a gun will be no deterent. And more innocent people could be killed in the crossfire.

You are basing your statement on a made up victim mentality scenario. "Teacher shouldn't have guns because if someone is going to shoot at you there is nothing you can do anyway". Now that is nonsense. Someone who is trained in the use of a firearm against a nut-case that is statistically not trained in the use of a firearm. What are you afraid of? I think the chances are better that a teacher could do something with a gun in that scenario than without one. That's just a plain statistical fact.

 

[WarPhalange]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

 

[Evo]

You are basing your statement on a made up victim mentality scenario. "Teacher shouldn't have guns because if someone is going to shoot at you there is nothing you can do anyway". Now that is nonsense. Someone who is trained in the use of a firearm against a nut-case that is statistically not trained in the use of a firearm. What are you afraid of? I think the chances are better that a teacher could do something with a gun in that scenario than without one. That's just a plain statistical fact.

Teacher has her back to the class writing on the blackboard. Shooter comes in and opens fire, teacher dead on the floor, students running and being shot.

Teacher is in front of class lecturing, shooter comes in and starts friring, teacher is dead before she gets to her desk.

Teacher is in the middle of the classroom talking to a student, shooter walks in and opens fire. Teacher never makes it back to their desk.

Even if the teacher has the gun on them, chances are they will never get the opportunity to use it. And if they do, say if they weren't hit first (teachers are often the only one standing), by the time they realized what was happening, got the gun out, took off the safety, students would be running everywhere, the chances that they wouldn't hit a student in the confusion would be pretty low.

Please explain how the gun helped the teacher. Do you think the teacher is going to walk around with a gun in their hand ready to shoot?

 

[drankin]

Teacher has her back to the class writing on the blackboard. Shooter comes in and opens fire, teacher dead on the floor, students running and being shot.

Teacher is in front of class lecturing, shooter comes in and starts friring, teacher is dead before she gets to her desk.

Teacher is in the middle of the classroom talking to a student, shooter walks in and opens fire. Teacher never makes it back to their desk.

Even if the teacher has the gun on them, chances are they will never get the opportunity to use it. And if they do, say if they weren't hit first (teachers are often the only one standing), by the time they realized what was happening, got the gun out, took off the safety, students would be running everywhere, the chances that they wouldn't hit a student in the confusion would be pretty low.

Please explain how the gun helped the teacher. Do you think the teacher is going to walk around with a gun in their hand ready to shoot?

OK, this is easy, the teacher in the next room who is armed and trained for these circumstances, waits outside the room for an opportunity, the attacker is distracted/reloading/whatever, and kills the said attacker. The first teacher has died unfortunately, the second teacher saved lives by taking out the attacker before more are people are killed.

As far the "cross-fire" idea, find me an article to where someone defending him/herself with a firearm has killed innocent bystanders. Then we will discuss that. When a gun goes off a persons first instinct is to hit the deck, get low, hide.

 

[wildman]

You are basing your statement on a made up victim mentality scenario. "Teacher shouldn't have guns because if someone is going to shoot at you there is nothing you can do anyway". Now that is nonsense. Someone who is trained in the use of a firearm against a nut-case that is statistically not trained in the use of a firearm. What are you afraid of? I think the chances are better that a teacher could do something with a gun in that scenario than without one. That's just a plain statistical fact.

I don't have a problem with someone owning a gun. However, keep in mind that accidents involving guns are much more likely than the use of a gun to defend one against a wacko -- that is the real statistical fact. Although the wackos get a lot of press whenever they go off the deep end, the actual number of attacks are very small. On the other hand, if you arm every one of the millions of teachers in America, the chances (even if they are only one in every 100,000 teachers) are that you are going to have many more kids being killed by teachers then ever were killed by wackos. It is a dumb idea.

 

[russ_watters]

On the other hand, if you arm every one of the millions of teachers in America, the chances (even if they are only one in every 100,000 teachers) are that you are going to have many more kids being killed by teachers then ever were killed by wackos. It is a dumb idea.

Agreed, but what I'm more worried about it kids getting ahold of the guns.

 

[Evo]

OK, this is easy, the teacher in the next room who is armed and trained for these circumstances, waits outside the room for an opportunity, the attacker is distracted/reloading/whatever, and kills the said attacker. The first teacher has died unfortunately, the second teacher saved lives by taking out the attacker before more are people are killed.

By the time another teacher gets a clue and gets to the room, either everyone's dead and the shooter kills the other teacher stupid enough to think they're just going to shoot the gunman. That is if the shooter is even still there by that time.

As far the "cross-fire" idea, find me an article to where someone defending him/herself with a firearm has killed innocent bystanders. Then we will discuss that.

You've got to be joking. You're claiming that you haven't read articles where the person with the gun trying to defend themselves accidently shot themselves with their own gun? And you expect that someone that has never been in that situation won't hit someone accidently in a small room filled with panicked people?

When a gun goes off a persons first instinct is to hit the deck, get low, hide.

You haven't actually been in a situation where someone opened fire and someone was killed, have you? I have. I witnessed a murder where a man was killed. It doesn't happen like that. You hear a loud noise, like a car has backfired, or a firecracker, you don't know, your mind is trying to make sense of it. You see someone stagger and fall to the ground, you think "wow, he must be loaded", but funny he seemed sober a minute ago. You walk over to where the person is lying on the ground and see some dark liquid coming out from under him. What the heck is that, you wonder?

 

[drankin]

By the time another teacher gets a clue and gets to the room, either everyone's dead and the shooter kills the other teacher stupid enough to think they're just going to shoot the gunman. That is if the shooter is even still there by that time.

You've got to be joking. You're claiming that you haven't read articles where the person with the gun trying to defend themselves accidently shot themselves with their own gun? And you expect that someone that has never been in that situation won't hit someone accidently in a small room filled with panicked people?

You haven't actually been in a situation where someone opened fire and someone was killed, have you? I have. I witnessed a murder where a man was killed. It doesn't happen like that. You hear a loud noise, like a car has backfired, or a firecracker, you don't know, your mind is trying to make sense of it. You see someone stagger and fall to the ground, you think "wow, he must be loaded", but funny he seemed sober a minute ago. You walk over to where the person is lying on the ground and see some dark liquid coming out from under him. What the heck is that, you wonder?

No, Evo, please finde me an article.

Yes, Evo, a shootout right in front of my house. The blood from one of the bodies flowed half a block down the street. Myself and everyone in the house hit the freakin deck looking for cover.

Enough with the drama. To have people trained in the proper use of a firearm protecting themselves and those around them is a good thing. More people are killed intentionally by guns than accidentally.

 

[Evo]

No, Evo, please finde me an article.

How about thousands? http://www.google.com/search?source...rlz=1T4HPIA_en___US243&q=accidental+shootings

Yes, Evo, a shootout right in front of my house. The blood from one of the bodies flowed half a block down the street. Myself and everyone in the house hit the freakin deck looking for cover.

Did you live in a bad neighborhood where the possibility of someone having a gun was not unusual? I can tell you that in my neighborhood no gun has ever been fired and people would have no idea what the noise was.

More people are killed intentionally by guns than accidentally.

Since handguns are made for the purpose of shooting people, I would expect so.

 

[rootX]

Enough with the drama. To have people trained in the proper use of a firearm protecting themselves and those around them is a good thing. More people are killed intentionally by guns than accidentally.

This wouldn't solve the problem. They need to know what's causing the problem.

Instead of putting money into developing weapons if they use it for society development or children welfare programs, there wouldn't be any gun shootings.

 

[Dale]

by the time a teacher realizes what is happening and can figure out who is shooting, the teacher and most students will probably already be dead.

Columbine lasted 45 minutes. Virginia Tech lasted 10-35 minutes. Even government school teachers won't take that long to figure things out.

 

[Evo]

Columbine lasted 45 minutes. Virginia Tech lasted 10-35 minutes. Even government school teachers won't take that long to figure things out.

Considering the facts of the shootings, how much difference, if any, do you think a teacher carrying a gun, that has never used it on a human and has no experience with something like like this would have made? And please state where the teacher(s) would have made this impact.

 

[drankin]

Considering the facts of the shootings, how much difference, if any, do you think a teacher carrying a gun, that has never used it on a human and has no experience with something like like this would have made? And please state where the teacher(s) would have made this impact.

Teachers are people just like you and me. Some like you, some like me. If a teacher were like myself, he would get his handgun and stop the attacker or die trying. I believe most teachers that chose to carry a firearm would do the same thing. Teachers aren't being required to carry, just those that chose to. And they cannot until the satisfy the requirements decided by their local board.

 

[Gokul43201]

When two similarly sized groups of people are arguing for two mutually exclusive points, then the one thing that is often true about such debate is that the answer is rarely reachable by common sense. In this case, for instance, if it were common sense that teachers with guns reduce gun violence in schools, then the fact that half the debaters are arguing against it makes the case that this sense is not sufficiently common.

I think the first step in such debates is to recognize that it takes much more than common sense to resolve.

Anyway...having gotten that out of my system, here's an interesting article with some stats on accidental shootings.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DF1638F930A25752C0A96E948260

 

[drankin]

When two similarly sized groups of people are arguing for two mutually exclusive points, then the one thing that is often true about such debate is that the answer is rarely reachable by common sense. In this case, for instance, if it were common sense that teachers with guns reduce gun violence in schools, then the fact that half the debaters are arguing against it makes the case that this sense is not sufficiently common.

I think the first step in such debates is to recognize that it takes much more than common sense to resolve.

Anyway...having gotten that out of my system, here's an interesting article with some stats on accidental shootings.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DF1638F930A25752C0A96E948260

Good article, kids should not be playing with guns. Not really the point of our discussion but definitely important.

 

[Dale]

Considering the facts of the shootings, how much difference, if any, do you think a teacher carrying a gun, that has never used it on a human and has no experience with something like like this would have made? And please state where the teacher(s) would have made this impact.

Patti Nielson had the presence of mind to run, get students to hide, dial 911, and hide behind the library counter herself. If she had a handgun, and had been properly trained in its use, I think that she could have saved all but 2 victims that day. There were other teachers that would have had opportunities later.

In any case, your argument which I was refuting was that an attack happens too fast for a teacher to get a gun. That is simply not the case.

 

[Dale]

This wouldn't solve the problem. They need to know what's causing the problem.

Instead of putting money into developing weapons if they use it for society development or children welfare programs, there wouldn't be any gun shootings.

I have no problem with doing this also. It is obviously even better to prevent an incident entirely than to stop it early.

 

[LowlyPion]

First of all remember it's Texas.

This is a part of the country where gun racks in pick up trucks usually carry a gun. Apparently it's not all that far from where The Last Picture Show was set. (Archer County is just next to Wilbarger County)

The fact that they set the policy and they have the notoriety of it being publicized, I'd think that right there is likely a deterrence even if no teacher ever has a gun at school.

Similarly I'd reckon it's a part of the country that if you were at a bar and you pulled a gun out and placed it on the bar you would find that it was not the only gun in the bar.

 

[drankin]

First of all remember it's Texas.

This is a part of the country where gun racks in pick up trucks usually carry a gun. Apparently it's not all that far from where The Last Picture Show was set. (Archer County is just a couple of smallish counties - by Texas standards anyway - away from Wilbarger County)

The fact that they set the policy and they have the notoriety of it being publicized, I'd think that right there is likely a deterrence even if no teacher ever has a gun at school.

Similarly I'd reckon it's a part of the country that if you were at a bar and you pulled a gun out and placed it on the bar you would find that it was not the only gun in the bar.

That's a bit stereotypical and could probably be said about a lot of states, particularly in the Pacific NW and Alaska.

 

[LowlyPion]

That's a bit stereotypical and could probably be said about a lot of states, particularly in the Pacific NW and Alaska.

I won't deny that.

 

[Dale]

First of all remember it's Texas.

This is a part of the country where gun racks in pick up trucks usually carry a gun. ...
Similarly I'd reckon it's a part of the country that if you were at a bar and you pulled a gun out and placed it on the bar you would find that it was not the only gun in the bar.

That's a bit stereotypical

Hmm, after supporting the armed-teachers idea would it exacerbate the stereotype for me to mention that I am from Texas?

 

[mgb_phys]

properly trained in its use

I'm just picturing a squad of tweed-clad little old lady kindergarten teachers jogging through a swam in georgia chanting "this is my weapon - this is my gun"

 

[cristo]

It appears that many people think that simply handing someone a gun, and giving them some lessons on how to use it will turn teachers into some type of superhero: it won't. There's then also the fact that the nutcase knows that the teacher is carrying a gun, so just shoots him/her first not wanting to let him/her have the opportunity of stopping the nutcase. The argument of the teacher "next door" stepping into do something about it I also find quite unrealistic: I'm willing to bet that the nutcase who has already killed half the room will shoot any nervous teacher who has never used his gun in a real life situation coming through a classroom door. Again, these are normal people, and are not trained to deal with such situations. Unless, of course, you put another prerequisite on teaching, that the person has police training for several years.

 

[Dale]

It appears that many people think that simply handing someone a gun, and giving them some lessons on how to use it will turn teachers into some type of superhero: it won't.

You are quite right, there is no guarantee that they will be able to stop the killer if they have a gun. They may not reach it in time, they may hesitate in the face of killing a person, they may miss. Their success is not guaranteed if they have a gun, but if they do not have a gun then their failure is guaranteed. At least with a gun and training there is a chance they could limit the tragedy.

 

[Gokul43201]

What about flashbangs? I think we could give teachers flashbangs instead.

 

[russ_watters]

Oh yea, the kids at my school would have loved to get ahold of a few of those! Woudla made football games a lot more fun (my high schoo team sucked).

 

[Chi Meson]

Y'know, I would just be satisfied if I were allowed to speak sharply to a student, in a manner that might be harmful to his self-esteem, without fearing lawsuit.

 

[Evo]

Y'know, I would just be satisfied if I were allowed to speak sharply to a student, in a manner that might be harmful to his self-esteem, without fearing lawsuit.

No, you may not tell the student the truth, but in some states you can draw a gun on them and shoot them claiming that you were certain you saw them holding a gun.

 

[Cyrus]

Y'know, I would just be satisfied if I were allowed to speak sharply to a student, in a manner that might be harmful to his self-esteem, without fearing lawsuit.

WHAT? You can't yell at students? Are you joking me...

 

[OAQfirst]

Why isn't anyone talking about preventing a school shooting? Why do students bring guns to school?

Is anyone going to address the underlying issues? Or does this mean we're conceding to violence and accepting it as the new normal life?

 

[LowlyPion]

There's then also the fact that the nutcase knows that the teacher is carrying a gun, so just shoots him/her first not wanting to let him/her have the opportunity of stopping the nutcase.

Are you presuming then that nutcases premeditate? Because surely Columbine style nuttery is difficult to guard against regardless of whether teachers have guns or no.

If you look at the passage of the order allowing handguns by teachers as a move that might permit armed personnel on the premises and disposition of such defensive weapons was not widely known, then the increase in uncertainty would certainly be a concern in any premeditation and hence a possible deterrence.

But that said I'd still think the risk is all with the School Board because of the potential for wrongful and foreseeable loss of life.

 

[WheelsRCool]

Are these teachers going to carry the guns in school, or would it be more just allowing them to HAVE guns in the school, but say locked in a safe or drawer or something, so that they can retreive the gun if necessary...? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.