The discussion revolves around the potential effects of temporarily magnetizing plates involved in the Casimir effect, particularly whether such magnetization influences measurements of laser beams and negative pressure phenomena. Participants explore the intersection of quantum mechanics and classical physics in this context, questioning the feasibility and implications of related experiments.
Participants express a range of views on the feasibility of measuring the effects discussed, with some asserting that it is impossible while others maintain that the effects could be observed under certain conditions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding whether relevant experiments have been conducted.
Participants highlight the complexities of measuring interactions between quantum and classical effects, as well as the challenges posed by the dominance of magnetic forces over the Casimir effect. There is an ongoing debate about the validity and implications of proposed experimental setups.
It is possible to calculate when the Casimir effect will take place. The point is to test the effects on negative pressure in the presence of a much stronger force working in the same direction as the Casimir effect, to see if it contributes to general physical effects of negative pressure. Have any such experiments been done?Vanadium 50 said:How do you measure the tiny Casimir forces on the plates in the face of the ginormous maghnetic forces?
I am not referring to *measuring* the Casimir effect in itself! I am referring to knowing that the Casimir effect *should* happen, applying a much stronger force working in the same direction, and see if it produces negative pressure effects not seen in magnetism in and by itself. Have such an experiment ever been done?Vanadium 50 said:It is not possible to measure the tiny Casimir forces on the plates in the face of the ginormous magnetic forces.
Just because you may not be able to *measure* the Casimir effect in the magnetic field doesn't mean the Casimir effect doesn't exist there. It's like Neptune existed before telescopes were invented. Though in this case, it is still possible to know at what distance between the plates the Casimir effect takes place, and activate the temporary magnetization accordingly. And by the way, inability to measure the Casimir effect itself is not even relevant to the question that I am asking. The question is if experiments have been done to see if temporary magnetization of such plates at such a distance generates overall negative pressure effects not seen if a magnetic field only is used? Such as testing if passing laser beams chnge direction?Vanadium 50 said:The answer is "no", for the reasons I stated.
I think you may be trying to combine a QM phenomenon with an essentially classical phenomenon (as you describe it) in the same argument. This sort of disqualifies any results or implications from the thought experiment. That's unsatisfactory, I realize, but it may help to reassure you. (?)Martin Sallberg said:Have any experiments on the Casimir effect tried what happens if the plates are temporarily magnetized when they are pulled together by the effect? E.g. measurements of what happens to passing laser beams and the like?
It is not a simple thought experiment. It is a question of whether or not the experiment have been done IRL. Different models of quantum gravity makes different predictions of when quantum effects can be combined with and equivalent to classic effects. The only way to find out is to do experiments IRL. The question is: have an experiment of this description been done IRL, or not?sophiecentaur said:I think you may be trying to combine a QM phenomenon with an essentially classical phenomenon (as you describe it) in the same argument. This sort of disqualifies any results or implications from the thought experiment. That's unsatisfactory, I realize, but it may help to reassure you. (?)
Martin Sallberg said:I am not referring to *measuring* the Casimir effect in itself!
These seem to be mutually exclusive. An experiment to detect the effect would involve measuring it, surely? You would need to produce a small enough (measurable) magnetic effect and then measure the difference, with and without the Casimir effect. Measurement each time.Martin Sallberg said:The question is: have an experiment of this description been done IRL, or not?
When I wrote "not about measuring the Casimir effect per say", I was referring to the small Casimir effect produced directly by the proximity between the plates, as a reply to it being too small to measure in the presence of a magnetic field. There is no mutual exclusivity between that and measuring spacetime distortions caused by negative pressure in a setup with temporarily magnetized Casimir effect plates. It is not about testing whether or not the small Casimir effect produced by the plates as an isolable factor contribute to the magnetic field at all. It is about testing whether or not the presence of the Casimir effect makes the magnetic field work equivalently with the Casimir effect, contributing to the negative pressure effect on spacetime measurable by laser beam direction change.sophiecentaur said:These seem to be mutually exclusive. An experiment to detect the effect would involve measuring it, surely? You would need to produce a small enough (measurable) magnetic effect and then measure the difference, with and without the Casimir effect. Measurement each time.
I imagine you would need to measure the magnetic force as the spacing was reduced to Zero and then see whether the results follow the theoretical value, based on (magnetic) theory. You 'd be looking for a sudden blip at very small separations.
I am asking whether or not such an experiment have been done. If I had a reference to such an experiment, I would be reading that and not ask for it on forums. As for your ideas on "having legs", are you ignorant of what Karl Popper said? The falsifiable predictions and testing is what matters. Who came up with a hypothesis and how it was done doesn't.sophiecentaur said:To mis-quote from the film Airplane - Stop calling me per say. lol
But I really have no idea about this stuff. Do you have some reference to what you are suggesting? I can't tell if it has legs or if it's just some private hypothesis of yours.
In this case, it is a falsifiable hypothesis: that a force that works in the same direction as something caused by the Casimir effect contributes to the negative pressure caused by the Casimir effect, even if the added force in and by itself would not cause such a negative pressure. The hypothesis does make a falsifiable prediction: an increase in the Casimir effect related effects on space-time, measurable by laser beam direction change. And yes, Popper did say that what inspired someone to come up with a hypothesis, or who the person is, does not matter.sophiecentaur said:Popper never said that it's worth while trying to measure the interaction any random pair of quantities. I am asking for some indication that what you are suggesting is worth even considering. If you have no reference to the two effects or a good reason to associate them in the first place then the topic is not worth discussing. Scientific discoveries don't just pop up out of nowhere and you need to establish some 'credentials' for your idea. (e.g. could you expect to get funding on the basis of your idea?)