Terrell Revisited: The Invisibility of the Lorentz Contraction

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of Lorentz contraction in the context of Special Relativity, specifically addressing the arguments presented by James Terrell regarding the visibility of Lorentz contraction. Participants explore the implications of the relativity of simultaneity, time dilation, and the geometry of light propagation in different reference frames.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant introduces a thought experiment involving a circular room with mirrors and smoke to illustrate the relativity of simultaneity and its effects on the perception of light.
  • Another participant, G H Wells Jr, questions the practicality of the thought experiment, suggesting that the angles of view would distort the image, challenging the initial assumptions made.
  • A participant references Terrell's argument that Lorentz contraction is "invisible" due to the conformality of aberration, suggesting that observers will see the same lengths regardless of their relative motion.
  • Counterarguments are presented, indicating that Lorentz contraction is indeed visible and that Terrell's claims about objects appearing normal are not supported by the analysis of light propagation and observer perspectives.
  • Participants discuss the use of aberration equations and diagrams to analyze the apparent lengths of objects at different speeds, noting discrepancies with Terrell's conclusions.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of the past light cone in determining the apparent position of objects, arguing that this perspective remains consistent across reference frames.
  • There is a detailed examination of the implications of Lorentz transformations on the perception of length and the visibility of contraction effects, with participants expressing skepticism about Terrell's conclusions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on the visibility of Lorentz contraction. Some argue that it is visible, while others support Terrell's claim that it is not. The discussion remains unresolved with competing viewpoints presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of the arguments, including assumptions about light propagation, observer perspectives, and the mathematical treatment of Lorentz transformations and aberration equations. There are unresolved aspects regarding the interpretation of visual observations in different reference frames.

  • #181
JDoolin said:
And high redshift objects, such as distant supernova with z>7, and CMBR with z>1000.
The high redshift objects are traveling more than .866c but straight away from us.
I wouldn't count that, only macro objects passing each other at the same place and time with a relative speed. Cosmological redshifts are generally not regarded as high-speed motion, but rather a dynamical change in the metric that determines distances.
 
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  • #182
JDoolin said:
There's "superluminal jets":
The superluminal jets probably consist of particles--not individual macroscopic objects. And high redshift objects, such as distant supernova with z>7, and CMBR with z>1000.
The high redshift objects are traveling more than .866c but straight away from us.
I explicitly said "near earth", which is what would be needed to try to photograph the effects you've been simulating.
 
  • #183
Ken G said:
I wouldn't count that, only macro objects passing each other at the same place and time with a relative speed. Cosmological redshifts are generally not regarded as high-speed motion, but rather a dynamical change in the metric that determines distances.

And that is a matter of contention, which I would rather not hijack this thread to discuss. A consensus position is that relative velocity of distant objects simply has no well defined meaning.
 
  • #184
PAllen said:
I explicitly said "near earth", which is what would be needed to try to photograph the effects you've been simulating.

About 53 million light years away, M87 has a superluminal jet that is large enough to distinguish some macroscopic detail.

http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys200/lectures/superlum/superlum.htm

Now that doesn't occupy a large solid-angle, but it should still show the stretching and compression along the axis of it's velocity.

The jet is simultaneously being shot out from both sides of the active galaxy, which would provide a dramatic difference between the jets moving away, and the jets moving toward us.

We might not see the superluminal jet "go by" like this abstract object does here:
http://www.spoonfedrelativity.com/web_images/ViewFollowing19.gif

But we would still observe whatever details are present in the approaching cloud, stretched out by the superluminal effect, and on the other side, flattened by the combination of the recession effect and the Lorentz Contraction effect.
m87jet_hst_big.jpg

So, for instance, why here, does the jet seem to only come out of one side of the galaxy? Is it an asymmetrical event, or is it actually coming out of both sides, equally, but our perception of the receding jet are so slowed that we can't see it yet?
 
  • #185
Well, the other jet would be red shifted and dimmed versus blue shifted and brightened. Don't know that fully accounts for no visibility, but it would certainly contribute. There is a large component velocity towards us for superluminal apparent motion.
 

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