The axiom of choice one a finite family of sets.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Axiom of Choice as it pertains to finite families of nonempty sets. Participants explore the implications of the axiom, the existence of choice functions, and the nature of proofs related to these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested, Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the Axiom of Choice allows for the assumption of a choice function for a finite family of nonempty sets since elements can be manually selected.
  • Another participant agrees with this assertion.
  • A question is posed regarding the provability of the claim about choice functions for finite families of sets.
  • A later reply claims that the proof is trivial, stating that one can pick an element from each set in a finite number of steps.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism about the triviality of the proof.
  • It is noted that the proof relies on having an explicitly finite family of sets and that a different approach, such as induction on the number of sets, is necessary for the general statement regarding any finite family of nonempty sets.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that a choice function exists for finite families of nonempty sets, but there is some contention regarding the nature of the proof and whether it is trivial or requires more rigorous justification.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the distinction between explicitly finite families of sets and the general case, indicating that different proofs may be required depending on the context.

gottfried
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The axiom of choice on a finite family of sets.

I just been doing some casual reading on the Axiom of CHoice and my understanding of the is that it assert the existence of a choice function when one is not constructable. So if we have a finite family of nonempty sets is it fair to say we can assume the existence of a choice function because it is always possible, in theory, to manually pick an element of each set?
 
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Thanks. Do you know if this can be proved?
 
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gottfried said:
Thanks. Do you know if this can be proved?

The proof is trivial. If there are n (non-empty) sets, pick a member from the first, then from the second. This requires n steps - so it can be done.
 
It seemed too trivial, to be true. Thanks.
 
It depends.
Only if you have an explicitly finite family of nonempty sets, that you can list : E1,...En then you can use a proof whose length is proportional to n :
Let x1 in E1,
Let x2 in E2,
...
Let xn in En
then (x1,...,xn) is in the product, which is thus nonempty.

But for the mathematical statement of the general case "Any finite family of nonempty sets has a choice function" it needs a different proof, namely it can be done by rewriting the claim as "For any natural number n, any family of n nonempty sets has a choice function" to be proven by induction on n.
 

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