The Borg and the Federation

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  • #1
Secan
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I'm currently acquiring Star Trek: First Contact and will be watching it soon.

But reading the plot. It doesn't answer many questions.

First, what is the last episode the Borgs have been presented? Does the current Star Trek Picard or other series have Borgs in them?

The Borgs can assimilate other civilizations. In Star Trek, they can even do time travel. So have the Borgs attempted any Event Horizon stun. Meaning trying to assimilate other dimensions and got possessed as a result?

And about the Federations. They have a rule about non-interference in other planets affair. Star Trek has the fleet original on Earth so they can interfere in Earth affairs, but to what extend can they interfere in other planets?

For example for sake of illustration. If we have Borg-like creatures now possessed by entities from other dimensions and are on Earth and they are kidnapping advanced people to assimilate and even have plan to stay on earth. To what extend could the Federation interfere on our behalf? In Star Trek. Will they just ignore other world to be assimilated by the Hive or will they violate the rule of non-interference? What is the threshold of a civilization progress when they can already interfere or present themselves to the world public at large? What episodes or movies where these choices are made distinct?
 

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  • #3
Secan
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Ok. I just watched Star Trek: First Contact and read the above articles. But it doesn't answer completely something I wanted to know:

The exact and definite origins of the Borg. And whether the Federation Prime Directive of none interference can save a planet from Borg invasion.

This is the clue to the origin of the Borgs.

[Quote box added by a Mentor for the text below from link provided by @jedishrfu above]
"The origin of the Borg is vague. What is known is by hearsay, brief contacts with Borg survivors, and even the Borg itself.

The Borg originated in the Delta Quadrant. (Star Trek: First Contact; VOY: "Dark Frontier", "Dragon's Teeth") According to the Borg Queen, the species known as the Borg started out as normal plain lifeforms; (Star Trek: First Contact) they had been developing for thousands of centuries before the 24th century, and over the many years, they evolved into a mixture of organic and artificial life with cybernetic enhancements. (Star Trek: First Contact; TNG: "Q Who")"
But it is not enough details. Is it possible they were once slaves of some master race?

I haven't watched Star Trek Picard yet. Have you guys? What episodes have the Borgs in them?

This genres about Borgs can give us some ideas how to deal with the problem of this world. We have Greys who were once Borgs or slaves of a master race. Then they become independent and assimilate civilizations to expand themselves. Some got possessed by other dimensional entities. And reasons for the abductions is to assimilate our distinctiveness.

I read about the Prime Directive. "the Prime Directive (also known as "Starfleet General Order 1", "General Order 1", and the "non-interference directive") is a guiding principle of Starfleet, prohibiting its members from interfering with the internal and natural development of alien civilizations.[1] The Prime Directive applies particularly to civilizations which are below a certain threshold of technological, scientific and cultural development; preventing starship crews from using their superior technology to impose their own values or ideals on them. ".

Can the Prime Directive be applied to a planet besieged by Borgs like intruders? Or is Resistance is Futile? And it's hopeless for the world? We need insights and the movies may offer some. Who have actually watched the entire Picard series?
 
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  • #4
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One simply can't know these details unless one is privy to the writer's guide for the star trek universe. Often these plot holes are left open until such time as they need to be filled.

The writers wouldn't have developed all this backstory to completion before writing the actual episodes. However over time, the Borg have become and important adversary of the Federation and so the writers would have made notes and passed on hints in Borg episodes.

However, you are free to speculate on what might be the case on a fan forum where the discussion would be much more fulfilling. We deal in STEM subjects here not science fiction history such as you are looking for .
 
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  • #5
Borg
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The exact and definite origins of the Borg.
We started out as a science advisor studying artificial intelligence. :wink:
 
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  • #6
Secan
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We started out as a science advisor studying artificial intelligence. :wink:

Yes, it makes sense. Now I'm acquiring Caprica and will watch the last part episode 18. Remember the scene in the stadium with the many bombers in place. This is from Imdb " Two families, the Graystones and the Adamas, live together on a peaceful planet known as Caprica, where a startling breakthrough in artificial intelligence brings about unforeseen consequences."

We have movies like Rise of the Planet of the Apes. Why don't we have Rise of the Borgs. It makes sense they are slaves made of A.I. where individuality is not encouraged hence the Hive part. So when these slaves become breakaways. They conquered other systems to expand themselves, even beyond our dimensions. And got possessed as a result. They hinted they will appear en masse after environmental and climate catastrophe finished off the planet, very soon.

Borg the Movie would be very interesting. No plan for this yet?
 
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  • #8
Secan
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Do you happen to know of any neutral network algorithm that can make it connect to a field like EM field? The Borg has subspace channel open to their brains so they are all in telepathic contact forming the Hive.

On an unrelated note. Even a day after watching Star Trek: First Contact and reading wiki and other references. I'm still not sure whether humans created the first warp drive, or did it mean only first warp drive on Earth and not the universe?

"Enterprise arrives hundreds of years in its past on April 4, 2063, the day before humanity's first encounter with alien life after Zefram Cochrane's historic warp drive flight; the crew realizes the Borg are trying to prevent first contact."
 
  • #9
Borg
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I'm still not sure whether humans created the first warp drive, or did it mean only first warp drive on Earth and not the universe?
Did you miss the part at the end of the movie where the Vulcans showed up with their warp drive ship?
 
  • #10
Secan
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Did you miss the part at the end of the movie where the Vulcans showed up with their warp drive ship?

How could I recognize it was a warp drive ship. I thought it was just powered by jet fuel.

But somewhere the Enterprise had conversations about the Federation star fleet fitted with warp drives after the discovery so I thought it was the universe first.

So before any First Contact with a superior civilization. A planet population has to make the discovery on our own. Not advanced physics spoon fed. Maybe that's one of the Federation Prime Directive of non-interference.

Right now we are still in the medieval period, is it not.
 
  • #11
RedOrb
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Ok. I just watched Star Trek: First Contact and read the above articles. But it doesn't answer completely something I wanted to know:

The exact and definite origins of the Borg. And whether the Federation Prime Directive of none interference can save a planet from Borg invasion.

This is the clue to the origin of the Borgs.

"The origin of the Borg is vague. What is known is by hearsay, brief contacts with Borg survivors, and even the Borg itself.

The Borg originated in the Delta Quadrant. (Star Trek: First Contact; VOY: "Dark Frontier", "Dragon's Teeth") According to the Borg Queen, the species known as the Borg started out as normal plain lifeforms; (Star Trek: First Contact) they had been developing for thousands of centuries before the 24th century, and over the many years, they evolved into a mixture of organic and artificial life with cybernetic enhancements. (Star Trek: First Contact; TNG: "Q Who")"

But it is not enough details. Is it possible they were once slaves of some master race?

I haven't watched Star Trek Picard yet. Have you guys? What episodes have the Borgs in them?

This genres about Borgs can give us some ideas how to deal with the problem of this world. We have Greys who were once Borgs or slaves of a master race. Then they become independent and assimilate civilizations to expand themselves. Some got possessed by other dimensional entities. And reasons for the abductions is to assimilate our distinctiveness.

I read about the Prime Directive. "the Prime Directive (also known as "Starfleet General Order 1", "General Order 1", and the "non-interference directive") is a guiding principle of Starfleet, prohibiting its members from interfering with the internal and natural development of alien civilizations.[1] The Prime Directive applies particularly to civilizations which are below a certain threshold of technological, scientific and cultural development; preventing starship crews from using their superior technology to impose their own values or ideals on them. ".

Can the Prime Directive be applied to a planet besieged by Borgs like intruders? Or is Resistance is Futile? And it's hopeless for the world? We need insights and the movies may offer some. Who have actually watched the entire Picard series?
The origins of the Borg which are fiction begin and end in the mind of the writer or writers. The franchise wants you to stay interested and tune into the next chapter. Again the Borg have no beginning or end, they are neural impulses in a writers mind put to paper then screen
 
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  • #12
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@Secan everything about the Borg here is pure speculation. You’re trying to guess where the writers are going. Each new movie releases some new info about them. Each new movie often has a different team of writers who in the interests of the franchise try to craft a story that is consistent with prior info on the Borg.

I feel we have now exhausted our resources on this topic and fear being assimilated if we talk further on it.

Perhaps it’s time to close this thread. What say you @Borg ?
 
  • #13
Secan
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@Secan everything about the Borg here is pure speculation. You’re trying to guess where the writers are going. Each new movie releases some new info about them. Each new movie often has a different team of writers who in the interests of the franchise try to craft a story that is consistent with prior info on the Borg.

I feel we have now exhausted our resources on this topic and fear being assimilated if we talk further on it.

Perhaps it’s time to close this thread. What say you @Borg ?

The Borg are 1990s thing so I think they are bit outdated already. They are so one sided that we'd be lucky if they would be humanity's only enemy.

I'm presently watching Netflix Warrior Nun. The antagonists there are the enemy we should fear instead of the Borg.

Maybe Star Trek would be upgraded soon with more creative contents, one fitted for the 2020s and beyond.
 
  • #14
MikeeMiracle
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I am a Star Trek fan and have seen all the series and all the films but even I think it's kinda all been done already.
 
  • #15
Borg
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So before any First Contact with a superior civilization. A planet population has to make the discovery on our own. Not advanced physics spoon fed. Maybe that's one of the Federation Prime Directive of non-interference.
That was the point of the movie. Until a civilization achieves warp drive, there's no chance of them escaping their own solar system. Once they have the capability, then it's only a matter of time before they would run into another civilization. At that point, it becomes best to let them know the rules of the neighborhood (like the Prime Directive).
 
  • #16
Borg
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Perhaps it’s time to close this thread. What say you @Borg ?
I shouldn't speculate on the machinations of the Mentors. :oldtongue:
 
  • #18
RedOrb
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  • #19
Secan
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That was the point of the movie. Until a civilization achieves warp drive, there's no chance of them escaping their own solar system. Once they have the capability, then it's only a matter of time before they would run into another civilization. At that point, it becomes best to let them know the rules of the neighborhood (like the Prime Directive).

Hey that's a brilliant idea. You must be a genius to figure that out. I never thought of it.
 
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  • #20
RedOrb
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That was the point of the movie. Until a civilization achieves warp drive, there's no chance of them escaping their own solar system. Once they have the capability, then it's only a matter of time before they would run into another civilization. At that point, it becomes best to let them know the rules of the neighborhood (like the Prime Directive).
Warp drive is star trek nonsense, what we need are Moscovium or Ununpentium 115 space bending reactors
 
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  • #21
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Warp drive is star trek nonsense, what we need are Moscovium or Ununpentium 115 space bending reactors
Sadly another universe another time.
 
  • #22
RedOrb
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Sadly another universe another time.
This universe, oddly enough Bob Lazar inferenced the alien ship reactor fuel from area 51 then shortly after it was created by russian and american scientist.. Truth whoops fiction every time
 
  • #23
Secan
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I am a Star Trek fan and have seen all the series and all the films but even I think it's kinda all been done already.

Good. Because I don't have time to join a star trek fan based forum just to ask some basic questions (I can't subscribe to every new forum of every new movie i watched daily).

The Star Trek universe seems to lack something. They don't jump to another dimensions. They are so physically based. In Earth Final Conflict produced by same writers as Star Trek. They have so many other dimensions stuff. What makes science fiction nowadays so interesting is inclusion of other realities parallel to earth. This is to make us think about it more.

A few decades ago even before Star Trek: First Contact was shown. I met a group of abductees who formed a support group where they described about being abducted by Borg-like creatures. Not only that. But they were possessed by entities from other dimensions. Sort of like Star Trek met Event Horizon. After a few years I distanced myself and totally leave the group because I felt intrusion by these entities. We don't know the source of them, whether parallel universe or some kind of dark matter universe sharing home with Earth or others. And I don't want to make my life miserable dealing with them. Now I just love to watch movies in the comfort and safety of my house just watching them and not having to deal with them.

Star Trek lack all those themes that would make it complete. Unless I missed something? What episodes have them for example?
 
  • #24
MikeeMiracle
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Firstly I think your taking this whole thing too seriously, it's just a TV show and as others have said, the writters make it up as they are going along.

Star Trek since The Next Generation has been more about people / humanity / kinda believeable science / doing the "right thing" morally more so than any other Sci-Fi I have watched. They have whole episodes on establishing characters which none of the fans truly care about, and looking after other races. The "Fun" stuff you ask about is lacking because that's not what Star Trek is about. The clip below sums it up quite well...



This is why we don't need any more Star Trek, we want action / story / feel good factor these days.
 
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  • #25
Secan
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Firstly I think your taking this whole thing too seriously, it's just a TV show and as others have said, the writters make it up as they are going along.

Star Trek since The Next Generation has been more about people / humanity / kinda believeable science / doing the "right thing" morally more so than any other Sci-Fi I have watched. They have whole episodes on establishing characters which none of the fans truly care about, and looking after other races. The "Fun" stuff you ask about is lacking because that's not what Star Trek is about. The clip below sums it up quite well...



This is why we don't need any more Star Trek, we want action / story / feel good factor these days.


Great cartoon! I hope in the future they can make Star Trek that would deal with Star Wars The Force. Maybe 30 years from now, or 50 years?

Something like the Borgs kidnapping humans who have the Force matrix in the DNA. Without this logic. The Borgs can simply recreate everything in other planets without needing to abduct humans and do experiments. This is to raise awareness of the abductees plight. Poor souls. But these day you don't hear so much about abductions anymore, because the Hybrids project is done and Many see Hybrids walk in the malls and the public.

Back to Star Trek. Warp Drive is just 10 to 20 times the speed of light? This still won't be enough to make them travel across the universe.

Also can the Warp Drive make it possible for the ship to execute sharp 90 degree turn at high speed, cancelling Inertia? If not. If the ship is piloted exclusively by Borgs, then there is no problem of sharp 90 degree turns because the flesh won't get juiced on the walls?
 
  • #26
MikeeMiracle
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  • #27
Secan
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Warp Speed Known Data

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor

The Memory Alpha site is your ticket to all Star Trek knowledge, it uses information taken from every episode and compiles it into one site.

Great site. But I got sleepy reading them because the Federation didn't encounter Darth Vader so lack experience in dealing with Earth.

Do you know of other flicks with similar ideas to the Borgs but with the Borgs Hybrids already walking among us with them wielding the Force?

I just finished Warrior Nun. Something similar to this too.
 
  • #28
RedOrb
24
7
Firstly I think your taking this whole thing too seriously, it's just a TV show and as others have said, the writters make it up as they are going along.

Star Trek since The Next Generation has been more about people / humanity / kinda believeable science / doing the "right thing" morally more so than any other Sci-Fi I have watched. They have whole episodes on establishing characters which none of the fans truly care about, and looking after other races. The "Fun" stuff you ask about is lacking because that's not what Star Trek is about. The clip below sums it up quite well...



This is why we don't need any more Star Trek, we want action / story / feel good factor these days.

Star Trek has no science, they use words out of theoretical physics in the scripts, this is not science, it's fiction

Star Wars by the way is way more nerdy
 
  • #29
Secan
139
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Star Trek has no science, they use words out of theoretical physics in the scripts, this is not science, it's fiction

Star Wars by the way is way more nerdy

Maybe Vulcan Science Academy was created out of many ideas from arxiv. And you know there are thousands of theories available at arxiv. The writers added their creative juices to the ideas. So my interests in Star Trek is Vulcan Science.

My wish list is they would feature ships with no known conventional method of propulsion.

2 hikers took a photo reproduced here but the UK government confiscated and decided to delay release of it for 50 years into the 2070s instead of 2020 (You can google calvine sighting where many people have seen the original colored photo).

diamond ship.JPG


The Borg ship in First Contact is cube. Here it is diamond (maybe scout ship?). The Borgs and their hybrids definitely have their own Prime Directive in which no ship must be seen en massed in busy New York Streets or else the world can unite and launch an uprising that may still defer their agenda. So cloaking device is used en massed.

I hope the USS Enterprise can also be upgraded for propulsion less travel and form factor. What does Vulcan Science (ergo Arxiv) say about this. Instead of navigating by space using jet engine. Could ships be propelled by interacting with the quantum vacuum or something? Any science fiction theory how propulsionless ship can fly? Not just in Star Trek but other movies. Come on get us entertained creative fans especially now we are at home more often because of Covid lockdowns.
 
  • #30
RedOrb
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Maybe Vulcan Science Academy was created out of many ideas from arxiv. And you know there are thousands of theories available at arxiv. The writers added their creative juices to the ideas. So my interests in Star Trek is Vulcan Science.

My wish list is they would feature ships with no known conventional method of propulsion.

2 hikers took a photo reproduced here but the UK government confiscated and decided to delay release of it for 50 years into the 2070s instead of 2020 (You can google calvine sighting where many people have seen the original colored photo).

View attachment 270964

The Borg ship in First Contact is cube. Here it is diamond (maybe scout ship?). The Borgs and their hybrids definitely have their own Prime Directive in which no ship must be seen en massed in busy New York Streets or else the world can unite and launch an uprising that may still defer their agenda. So cloaking device is used en massed.

I hope the USS Enterprise can also be upgraded for propulsion less travel and form factor. What does Vulcan Science (ergo Arxiv) say about this. Instead of navigating by space using jet engine. Could ships be propelled by interacting with the quantum vacuum or something? Any science fiction theory how propulsionless ship can fly? Not just in Star Trek but other movies. Come on get us entertained creative fans especially now we are at home more often because of Covid lockdowns.
There are no Vulcans and as such there is no such thing as Vulcan science. Not sure if a science fiction theory is possible? Bye the way most accepted theories are actually science fiction
 
  • #31
Secan
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There are no Vulcans and as such there is no such thing as Vulcan science. Not sure if a science fiction theory is possible? Bye the way most accepted theories are actually science fiction

What do you mean most accepted theories are actually science fiction? Like Superstring theory?

Speaking of Superstring theory. Ideas of different vacua and landscape is very interesting.

Many abductees told me that before the late 1940s. The Borgs were trapped or imprisoned in some vacua, dimensions, parallel world, dark matter universe or whatever. I forgot if the Borgs as slaves long ago rebelled against their masters (just like Caprica). These gave legends to demons bound in hell. Then something occurred in the early 1940s that released them from the brane prisons, some activities done by Hitler and the Nazi (Imagine Hellboy portal experiment). Then the Borgs got released and we have our first sightings in 1947s. And multiple sightings in the 1950s and 1960s even near the White House. When the Borgs started their Hybrid Project, they began abductions in the 1960s (Betty and Barney Hill drew not just the Borgs but also some Nazi in caps). And in the 2000s. The Hybrid Project was finished. Most abductees now met the grown up Hybrids with Mindscan power (like Vulcan Mind melt).

I of course hope they are all just science fiction. It's better to believe the government and the world is in control. And nothing beyond the Standard Model.

Whatever. What science fiction movies have propulsionless ship and how they did they travel? In Flight of the Navigator. You have one scene where it just shot up in the air. In the documentary "Phenomenon". I saw a report of one witness in the 1970s seeing a ship did just like that. The disc turning vertical and shot up in the sky and vanish in instant.
 
  • #32
Drakkith
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Many abductees told me that before the late 1940s. The Borgs were trapped or imprisoned in some vacua, dimensions, parallel world, dark matter universe or whatever. I forgot if the Borgs as slaves long ago rebelled against their masters (just like Caprica). These gave legends to demons bound in hell. Then something occurred in the early 1940s that released them from the brane prisons, some activities done by Hitler and the Nazi (Imagine Hellboy portal experiment). Then the Borgs got released and we have our first sightings in 1947s. And multiple sightings in the 1950s and 1960s even near the White House. When the Borgs started their Hybrid Project, they began abductions in the 1960s (Betty and Barney Hill drew not just the Borgs but also some Nazi in caps). And in the 2000s. The Hybrid Project was finished. Most abductees now met the grown up Hybrids with Mindscan power (like Vulcan Mind melt).

Umm, what? What are you talking about?
 
  • #33
Secan
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Umm, what? What are you talking about?

I just remembered this funny incident. The Hybrids are really so ignorant, and have such low EQ.

A researchers met dozens and dozens of women taken by the Borgs. From "Walking Among Us:

"Betsey has been teaching hybrid and hubrid children since at least the 1980s. In a 1988 abduction event, she first had her table procedures. During
these, she realized that, for some reason, she had more mental control than usual. She waited for her chance and then jumped off the table and ran toward a doorway with a gray standing in it. In her panic, she tried to push him aside, but hit the arched doorway wall instead, sustaining a hairline fracture in her wrist. She continued to run down a hallway, but a tall gray got in front of her and brought her under control. They then took her into a room crowded with other abductees, several early-stage hybrid caretakers, and hybrid children, most of whom were wearing white gowns. A caretaker brought her to a five- or six-year-old boy who was wearing human clothes. With her arm aching, she had a conversation with the young hybrid that focused on food. He was human in his reactions and desires, and he indicated that he had had contact with other abductees."

Here is the funny part. Sometimes we need some comedy amidst all our serious science fiction flicks topics.

"Seventeen years later, Betsey was still answering questions for young hybrids. In 2005, she was taken into a room with several hybrid children between ages five and ten. Here, she was subjected to a question cascade.

They're asking me, “What do kids do?” and I'm saying, “Mostly they go to school and they learn things.” Then they're trying to relate it back, “Well, do they learn how to play basketball? Do they learn how to play baseball?” I said, “Sometimes, but mostly school is for other things.” This is all rapid-fire, though. They want to know what kids eat, how they eat, where they sleep. What do they mean by how do they eat? Do they eat with their fingers? Do they eat with utensils? What's the process involved? Why is the food on a plate? What's the purpose of the plate? Why are some foods eaten with the fingers and some foods are not? It's like endless questions. “How do you know when to eat with your fingers and when to eat with a utensil? How do you know what kind of plate to use? Why do you use a plate? Can you not use a plate?” I mean it's just endless. It's like they don't know anything. And then they're saying, “How do these kids learn all this?” and I said, “This is what we do with them since they're babies. They just know.” Then, when I bring up the subject of babies, it's, “Why don't babies eat this food? Why do babies have bottles?” And I'm thinking they should know some of this stuff. This is not mystery stuff here; this is simple. This whole exchange is mentally exhausting."

I hope Star Trek in the future can also feature the Borgs Hybrids so we are entertained more.
 
  • #34
MikeeMiracle
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You do realize most people do not believe in aliens or alien abductions don't you so your not gaining much credibility by persisting with this theme.
 
  • #35
Drakkith
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I just remembered this funny incident.

Are we still talking about Star Trek? None of what you said makes any sense to me.
 

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