The Nuclear Power Thread

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the pros and cons of nuclear power, particularly in light of Germany's decision to phase out its nuclear reactors. Advocates argue that nuclear energy is a crucial, low-emission source of electricity that could help mitigate air pollution and combat climate change, while opponents raise concerns about radioactive waste, environmental impacts, and the potential for catastrophic accidents. The debate highlights the need for advancements in nuclear technology, such as safer reactor designs and better waste management solutions. Additionally, there is a philosophical discussion on the societal perception of risk and the value of human life in the context of energy production. Overall, the thread emphasizes the complexity of energy policy and the ongoing need for informed dialogue on nuclear power's role in future energy strategies.
  • #501
mheslep said:
I think the main consideration is not per-se the cross-section of Pa-233, but rather its cross-section *versus* that of the fertile Th-232: Pa-233 cross-section is five times that of Th-232 (7.4 b, thermal). If the generated Pa-233 is never removed from the reactor, continued breeding of U-233 must become unsustainable.

I do not follow. Assuming the Th-232 makes up the bulk of the fuel, its concentration is effectively static. This means that the Pa-233 will eventually reach an equilibrium concentration which depends on the reactor flux (it both decays and transmutes) - therefore it doesn't increase indefinately. Are you concerned about the Pa-233 acting as a neutron poison lowering the reactivity of the fuel at the equilibrium concentration? If that is the case you simply need more fissile material to counteract the negative reactivity due to Pa-233. Yes at some point the fuel needs to be replaced just like any other fuel.

Perhaps I was unclear about what I meant by self sustaining fuel. This didn't mean self sustaining without reprocessing. It means the discharge concentration of your fissile material is roughly the initial concentration. Therefore reprocessing involves removing the fission products and topping up the fertile material (Th-232 in this case).
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #502
mheslep said:
I think the main consideration is not per-se the cross-section of Pa-233, but rather its cross-section *versus* that of the fertile Th-232: Pa-233 cross-section is five times that of Th-232 (7.4 b, thermal). If the generated Pa-233 is never removed from the reactor, continued breeding of U-233 must become unsustainable.
One has to look at the macroscopic cross section, which is the product of atomic density, N, and microscopic cross section, ##\sigma##. The initial concentration of Pa-233 would be nil, and it builds up over time, but as Hologram indicated, it's a small fraction of the total atoms and there is still much more Th-232.

Update: Role of Thorium to Supplement Fuel Cycles of Future Nuclear Energy Systems
http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/Pub1540_web.pdf
 
Last edited:
  • #503
MIT NSE Optimistic about the future of fusion power
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/sites/mit.edu.newsoffice/files/styles/article_cover_image_small/public/images/2014/lester-delfavero-hartwig-whyte.JPG?itok=wnYKYo0D
In inaugural Del Favero Doctoral Thesis Prize Lecture, Zach Hartwig PhD '14 explains why fusion research should be at the top of NSE's agenda.
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/del-favero-lecture-zach-hartwig-future-fusion-power-1216
 
  • #505
hmmm article didn't say what is the agreement.
I pray it doesn't leave US taxpayers on the hook for mistakes over there.

Fukushima lies in the lap of whoever chose not to act on the information about 'recent' giant tidal waves there.
Product Liability laws bite from both ends -- Notice how fast the Toyota gas pedal issue disappeared after those GE plants blew up?
 
  • #506
mathman said:
There is at least one major unsolved problem with nuclear power. What do you do with the spent fuel? Right now it just accumulates at the various plant sites. Yucca mountain is still iffy as a long term solution.
well if anyone in power could get there heads out of there asses long enough to cough up the required funds we could just fire it off in the general direction of the sun and let it burn up the wast for us
using our current space going capacity and it would require almost no additional infrastructure at all just small high output propulsion system attached to a shielded (shielded against the nuclear radiation getting out and killing the astronauts who brought it into space with them) and a rudimentary guidance system
point it in the right direction and fire
And you have now solved all your nuclear wast problems.
 
Last edited:
  • #507
Lee shannon said:
well if anyone in power could get there heads out of there asses long enough to cough up the required funds we could just fire it off in the general direction of the sun and let it burn up the wast for us
using our current space going capacity and it would require almost no additional infrastructure at all just small high output propulsion system attached to a shielded (shielded against the nuclear radiation getting out and killing the astronauts who brought it into space with them) and a rudimentary guidance system
point it in the right direction and fire
And you have now solved all your nuclear wast problems.
 
  • #508
Lee shannon said:
well if anyone in power could get there heads out of there asses long enough to cough up the required funds we could just fire it off in the general direction of the sun and let it burn up the wast for us
using our current space going capacity and it would require almost no additional infrastructure at all just small high output propulsion system attached to a shielded (shielded against the nuclear radiation getting out and killing the astronauts who brought it into space with them) and a rudimentary guidance system
point it in the right direction and fire
And you have now solved all your nuclear wast problems.

Two problems, one small, one big.
Small: there is no point to disposing of low and intermediate level waste in such an expensive manner. The stuff is pretty harmless even if it does escape, and it simply could be stored above-ground in any of umpteen ways that resist transport for a few centuries.
High level waste is indeed dangerous; hoisting it off-planet not only would be would be expensive, but unsafe as well until some genius works out how to do it with a flat guarantee of nothing falling back to Earth in the wrong form or the wrong place. (Did I hear someone say "Challenger"?)
Big: insisting on permanently sequestering or otherwise disposing of high level material such as spent fuel, whether by permanent sequestration or safe disposal, is criminally short-sighted; the fact that it is no longer suitable for use in the form for which it was fabricated, does not mean that it is not valuable or that it is replaceable or difficult to store safely. The demand that ALL high-level material be so sequestered that no trace or emanation ever could escape and that no one ever could stumble over it in the millions of years that it would take its longest-lived isotopes or products to decay into less harmful forms than say natural potassium is not only unrealistic but irrelevant when the main risks are rather on the scale of decades and the volume of material is tiny, which generally is the case.

Almost the only really biologically dangerous isotope that offers any challenge to contain is tritium, and maybe some Na isotopes, and they are not much of a challenge, given their chemical nature and quantities. Instead of obsessively trying to bury them immediately and forever, the sane thing is to store the material where it can cool down till it is manageable to handle. That isn't terribly challenging; the history of theft of high-level waste is so encouraging that it inspires faith in the progressive improvement of human honesty.
Then why shouldn't we store it (above ground, I reckon, but conveniently in available chambers if someone insists) in a place that presents no marine or volcanic threats and that is reasonably weather-proof? Many desert nature reserves would be perfect. Most unapproachable nuclear hazards or processing or power plants are already de facto reserves. I live near a couple. They are great! And not unique either; ask naturalists that have inspected the evacuated regions round Chernobyl.
It would be important to catalog what is where, against the time that people begin to wonder where to get some of it out again for new use or re-use.
The storage medium should be in a form that could be extracted efficiently, but not rapidly, nor without special equipment, nor in particular inconspicuously. It should be indifferent to earthquake, fire or flood, and in particular to corrosion. Something like hundred-tonne cargo containers with special multiple walls and requiring special tools and much time to breach, and producing long-range distress signals if moved without approval, should do nicely. They even might be powered by waste heat from their own contents. Compared to alternatives such as vitrification (not to mention lifting into space) such storage would be dirt cheap and it all could be used up long before all the important half-lives had expired.
So who needs space launching or deep burial or indeed, long term storage at all? A few centuries should be plenty. Anything likely to survive after that, we could cheerfully burn down to inactivity in a high neutron flux unit.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes wizwom and nikkkom
  • #509
@Astronuc in particular, but anyone is welcome. A question: I am keen on nukes, but am no nuclear engineer, and I had for long been under the impression that nuclear plants could be scrammed, typically by dumping them into enough water. Then came Fukushima. Wellll... there was a slight hiccup as Jim Hardy observed, concerning tsunamis, but not that the tsunamis never actually broke the plants badly. As I understand it the problem was
1: The tsunamis certainly did disrupt infrastructure in the region.
2: Water supply for scramming depended on the infrastructure.
All the other items I could have regarded with equanimity, but that combination struck me (a nuke freak, please note!) as simply crazy. To have ANY dependence on ANYTHING not fail-soft I would regard as totally nuts. So it would mean maintaining a reservoir of what... a million tonnes of water uselessly (pick a figure)? Under conditions that require no power to supply? And that would have cost how many millions of dollars extra? As compared to what the present rectification is costing and the direct harm that is accruing? (Never mind the political harm!)
SO: am I overlooking something?
And: let me guess: Fukushima is not the only place where fail-safe scramming is not available?
 
  • #510
As we understand the information from TEPCO, the operating reactors at Fukushima (Units 1, 2 and 3) did scram on signals related to the earthquake. The nuclear reaction did shutdown. BWR control rods are hydraulically operated, and all rods, as far as we know, were inserted as designed.

However, after a reactor shuts down, there are still fission products undergoing beta decay (or alpha decay for some transuranics), and gamma decay. The 'decay heat' must be removed by the coolant. After the coolant pumps shutdown, there should be a residual heat removal system that continues to circulate water to cool the reactor core. That heat is transferred through heat exchangers to the environment - in the case the ocean (other plants discharge heat to rivers, lakes or reservoirs, or in cooling towers to the atmosphere).

There is are simple overview of decay heat as it relates to the Fukushima reactors here - http://mitnse.com/2011/03/16/what-is-decay-heat/

Note the heat rate as a function of time after the accident.

The problem at Fukushima is that they lost the cooling of the reactor. It appears that some of the piping may have broken, in which case, water simply drained out of the pressure vessel without getting to the core. A core sitting in stagnant steam can get pretty hot, and in steam, oxidation may take place, and that is where the hydrogen would be generated. The hydrogen leaked out and ignited causing the explosions that further damaged the containment.

Without heat removal from the core, the fuel temperature continues to rise. I suspect there where chemical reactions between the fuel and coolant, and it's possible the fuel cladding and core structure began to melt. From the release of fission products, we know the fuel in the core was breached. Xe, Kr gases, and I, which is a volatile, were released, while most of the other fission products would dissolved in the water.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #511
Jon Richfield said:
@Astronuc in particular, but anyone is welcome. A question: I am keen on nukes, but am no nuclear engineer, and I had for long been under the impression that nuclear plants could be scrammed, typically by dumping them into enough water.

No. SCRAM is done by inserting all control and safety rods at once.

There are neither operational plans nor water allocated for flooding the containment. I found it surprising too.

All the other items I could have regarded with equanimity, but that combination struck me (a nuke freak, please note!) as simply crazy. To have ANY dependence on ANYTHING not fail-soft I would regard as totally nuts. So it would mean maintaining a reservoir of what... a million tonnes of water uselessly (pick a figure)? Under conditions that require no power to supply? And that would have cost how many millions of dollars extra? As compared to what the present rectification is costing and the direct harm that is accruing? (Never mind the political harm!)

I posted somewhat similar posts numerous times last few years.
Apparently our "nuclear people" managed to convince themselves that extended power outages won't happen. More amazingly, many STILL insist that planning for that is not necessary.

Fukushima is not the only place where fail-safe scramming is not available?

Well, scramming does seem to work. But yes, planning for reliable cooling of scrammed reactors in emergency such as extended power outage does not seem to be a priority even now. Neither filters on emergency vent lines.

I am no longer a supporter of nuclear power.
 
  • #512
Astronuc said:
As we understand the information from TEPCO, the operating reactors at Fukushima (Units 1, 2 and 3) did scram on signals related to the earthquake. The nuclear reaction did shutdown. BWR control rods are hydraulically operated, and all rods, as far as we know, were inserted as designed.

However, ...

Thanks Astronuc, that was helpful.
 
  • #513
I should add that the tsunami took out the fuel supply for the emergency diesel generators, so they quit. The tsunami also flooded the basements and shorted the electrical bus and flooded the emergency diesel generators, which are the major long term supply of electricity to the site when the transmission lines go down.

With electricity pumps and valves are inoperable, so even though the core is scrammed, the plant still needs the cooling system to function. Without power, the cooling system failed.
 
  • #514
nikkkom said:
No. SCRAM is done by inserting all control and safety rods at once.

I am not sure whether you are referring (correctly) to Fukushima in particular, or (incorrectly) in general to nuclear reactors. The nature of a SCRAM varies with the reactor type. I had perhaps misused the term by extending it to cover flooding the reactor. However it seems that we agree on the need for a reactor design to include fail safe removal of waste heat, whether from isotopic decay, Wigner energy or any other post-SCRAM sources, whether by flooding or other realistic means.

I assume that we also agree that any design that could rationally be expected to permit failure of such safety features in a commercial or industrial installation would be unconditionally unacceptable. And I speak as (unlike you, it seems) a continuing nuclear power enthusiast.
Apparently our "nuclear people" managed to convince themselves that extended power outages won't happen. More amazingly, many STILL insist that planning for that is not necessary.

Here I share your amazement and no doubt your dismay. Accepting your remark at face value (I was not aware of such statements or views) I cannot accept that any engineer with such attitudes understands either engineering responsibilities or the statistics of disaster cost-benefits. And as you imply, to deny the responsibility to install filters on emergency vent lines strikes me as flatly irrational, even bearing in mind that they cannot filter out everything.

I am no longer a supporter of nuclear power.

There however, we diverge. The fact that nuclear power demands greater responsibility than many politicians and engineers display does not persuade me that the only or even the only rational alternative is to give up on such an important option for our most important resource, namely power.
 
  • #515
Edit - oops i see other posts appeared whilst i was typing...
Astronuc said:
Without heat removal from the core, the fuel temperature continues to rise.

@ Jon --- That's the crux of it right there.

It has been long known that loss of all power for that generation of plants would lead to , well, just what happened.
For that reason they have redundant pumps, pipes, and heat exchangers, and redundant batteries, redundant diesel generators located in the basement where they're safe from earthquakes, redundant instruments and so on and so on.

Current designs do incorporate things like gravity fed heat removal and standardized connections for simple things like portable pumps and generators.How different might Fukushima turned out had some electrician found a few gasoline motor driven welding machines (ones that weren't full of seawater) and hooked them to the batteries?

Observe the two newer units there (5&6 ?), the ones with diesels higher up the hill, fared okay.
That those diesels were put way up there... hmmmm

Sorry for the ramble.

Glad to hear you aren't Anti-Nuke.
Thank you.

old jim
 
Last edited:
  • #516
jim hardy said:
Edit - oops i see other posts appeared whilst i was typing...

@ Jon --- That's the crux of it right there.
...
Sorry for the ramble.

Glad to hear you aren't Anti-Nuke.
Thank you.

old jim

Hi Jim, no problem with the ramble. Interesting stuff. Here in South Africa we are helplessly watching developments and wondering whether our government is going to buy a job lot of VVER/PWRs. From Russia. I am left trying to imagine a worse prospect than combining Russian diplomatic free enterprise and control of their own installations, with our local politicians opportunism and Nuke nous. AFAIK most of them don't know kVA from kava and don't care as long as someone promises that their take-home pay will expand. Nukes I can follow with the help of some of the folks round here, but some things are beyond my conception, never mind comprehension.
 
  • #517
Jon Richfield said:
Then why shouldn't we store it (above ground, I reckon, but conveniently in available chambers if someone insists) in a place that presents no marine or volcanic threats and that is reasonably weather-proof? Many desert nature reserves would be perfect. Most unapproachable nuclear hazards or processing or power plants are already de facto reserves. I live near a couple. They are great! And not unique either; ask naturalists that have inspected the evacuated regions round Chernobyl.
It would be important to catalog what is where, against the time that people begin to wonder where to get some of it out again for new use or re-use.
The storage medium should be in a form that could be extracted efficiently, but not rapidly, nor without special equipment, nor in particular inconspicuously. It should be indifferent to earthquake, fire or flood, and in particular to corrosion. Something like hundred-tonne cargo containers with special multiple walls and requiring special tools and much time to breach, and producing long-range distress signals if moved without approval, should do nicely. They even might be powered by waste heat from their own contents. Compared to alternatives such as vitrification (not to mention lifting into space) such storage would be dirt cheap and it all could be used up long before all the important half-lives had expired.
So who needs space launching or deep burial or indeed, long term storage at all? A few centuries should be plenty. Anything likely to survive after that, we could cheerfully burn down to inactivity in a high neutron flux unit.

This looks like inventing a bicycle to me. Why bother, when French have it nailed already?

Store spent fuel for 5-100 years (short periods let you recover more Pu; longer periods are more economic).
Then reprocess it. Save reprocessed uranium for use when prices of Uranium go up. Use recovered Pu to manufacture MOX fuel.
Vitrify fission products and transuranics.

This is being done today, every day, in La Hague facility in France. French will even build you a copy for something like $5bn if you ask them.

The only thing French don't do (yet), is geological burial of vitrified waste.
 
  • #518
nikkkom said:
This looks like inventing a bicycle to me. Why bother, when French have it nailed already?

Store spent fuel for 5-100 years (short periods let you recover more Pu; longer periods are more economic).
Then reprocess it. Save reprocessed uranium for use when prices of Uranium go up. Use recovered Pu to manufacture MOX fuel.
Vitrify fission products and transuranics.

This is being done today, every day, in La Hague facility in France. French will even build you a copy for something like $5bn if you ask them.

The only thing French don't do (yet), is geological burial of vitrified waste.

I am glad that someone has had enough sense to steal my idea, even if it was a Frenchman ( :D ) The only thing that puzzles me is why they should want to vitrify anything such as transuranics.

My elaborations about containers etc are just to anticipate possible objections to deal with terrorism etc.
And incidentally, presumably like the French, I reckon that to reprocess fuel before you have a use for the products is crazy. It just lands you with a bigger storage bill for process waste plus an increased load of impurities in your Pu from decay products.

Hooray for French logic and practicality, say I!
 
  • #519
Jon Richfield said:
I am glad that someone has had enough sense to steal my idea, even if it was a Frenchman ( :D ) The only thing that puzzles me is why they should want to vitrify anything such as transuranics.

Once upon a vacation i was chatting with a fellow at the motel pool while our kids were swimming.
He was on his way to the resort a block from where I lived in Key Largo.
Small world , he worked for a fuel reprocessing plant in England.
I mentioned i worked at the nuke plant near where he was going and would love to send him home with twenty years worth of spent fuel.
He said he'd love to have it.

US is delinquent in handling the stuff.

You have a Westinghouse-like PWR if I'm not mistaken. (Koeberg site?) I've communicated with a nice lady engineer responsible for its control rod drives through the user's group.

Small world indeed.
 
  • #520
Jon Richfield said:
I am glad that someone has had enough sense to steal my idea, even if it was a Frenchman ( :D ) The only thing that puzzles me is why they should want to vitrify anything such as transuranics

Cost. Separating transuranics from fission products requires further processing steps.

Each additional step costs a lot when you work with very, very radioactive materials: it must be done in airtight building, all gaseous emissions and liquid effluents require elaborate filtering, all vessels and piping need to be very durable (since repairs are extremely costly, if practical at all), and all of this stuff requires heavy shielding.
 
Last edited:
  • #521
Jon Richfield said:
My elaborations about containers etc are just to anticipate possible objections to deal with terrorism etc.

The final product at La Hague, a steel canister with vitrified waste, emits 1.5 million rem/h of gamma on contact. I dare any terrorists to try stealing THAT.
 
  • #522
Pardon my cackling Jim; concerning your "US is delinquent in handling the stuff ", I was just reflecting on how miserably without perspective the views of outsiders are concerning almost any speciality. Imagine the reactions of anti-nuke activists who knew of such conversations...
The US is not alone in its delinquency of course; virtuously anti-nuke activists are instant experts with unbounded faith in their knowledge and understanding. Eg did you know that one of the differences between non-breeder and breeder reactors is that the latter permit a reaction time of at most two MICROseconds to prevent a nuclear explosion? No? Nor did I. We have a lot to learn. Unlike my passionate source.
Not that nuclear engineering is alone in this of course; get to trading war stories with other engineers, say process or chemical engineers trying to deal with safety inspectors who don't understand simple chemistry but quote standards that mention iron as a fire hazard, and accordingly want to see the precautions against fire in stacks of sheet steel. Or want to see the safety practices for dealing with cylinders of compressed N2, uncomprehendingly walking past cylinders of compressed H2 on the way there...
I also remember how miserably ignorant many specialists are about fields quite close to their own; I have met practising engineers who patently misunderstood the concept of nuclear shielding, being under the impression that it was like mechanical shielding: put up a metal plate and either the bullet gets through a thin sheet, or it fails to get through a thick sheet. That sort of thing. And of course I am not immune -- that is why I hang out in places like this where there are folks to help.
Besides, not being an engineer, I safely can claim to know everything. :D

You are correct about Koeberg. I live almost in sight of it (about 60 km away). It has been chugging away since 1984 with comparatively minor incidents, not counting a non-nuclear sabotage incident in the eighties if I remember correctly. However, lately there have been some worrying incidents that to me suggest incompetence and smugness; I am increasingly inclined to share some of nikkkom's concerns. :(

Regrettably I don't know any of their staff. I generally like female engineers in any field -- they tend to be girls with sense and competence.

But I am not sure whether the VVVR approach is any better. And if SA were to commit to Russian built and Russian plants in this country, our politicians would have sold us down the river to dependence on a power that could hold the country to ransom for price and obedience for the foreseeable future,and all for the cash in their own pockets. And IMO, that was the GOOD news.
 
  • #523
Jon Richfield said:
Eg did you know that one of the differences between non-breeder and breeder reactors is that the latter permit a reaction time of at most two MICROseconds to prevent a nuclear explosion? No? Nor did I.

(1) You are confusing breeders with fast neutron reactors. Most breeders are fast reactors, but some are not.

(2) Fast reactors won't explode as a nuke even if they suffer power excursion. At worst, they can get their core melt. First, they are designed that way, and second, you can't get a sizable nuclear explosion by merely pushing uranium or plutonium chunks together, no matter how big are they - you need to make them collide or compress at significant velocities, hundreds of meter per second - otherwise, the energy release is "small" and the material "only" melts, doesn't reach millions of degrees.
 
  • #524
Jon Richfield said:
We have a lot to learn.

Eric Hoffer said, succinctly:
"I am no longer young enough to know everything."

I took only one course in Reactor Physics
and it did no go at all into fast reactors.
I know just enough to appreciate the abysmal depth of my ignorance.

Anything worth doing should be done well. Particularly anything involving large amounts of energy.
A Windows crash deserves an ounce of prevention, a reactor excursion warrants tons.
The problems with nuclear are societal not scientific ones. Complacency, hubris, ambition, fear and the like.

And that's my opinion.

Do current design Russian reactors still have a large positive moderator void coefficient?
Chernobyl's was +$4(4X enough for prompt criticality). I am glad the one in Cuba never got finished for i don't think something like that should be built in the first place let alone turned over to civilians.

old jim
 
  • #525
jim hardy said:
Do current design Russian reactors still have a large positive moderator void coefficient?
The VVER is the current commercial design being supplied by Russia, with the VVER-1000 and derivatives being the current models. The VVER-1000 is more like western PWRs, except is uses a triangular/hexagonal lattice. It uses control rods that drop in from the top, unlike the VVER-440 which used control assemblies.

The RBMK is a different animal and that design is more or less obsolete.
 
  • #526
I just understand how there is nuclear waste, I've been taught that radioactive materials are radioactive because they are inherently UNSTABLE, unstable material is needed for a fission reaction, so why is there waste? Shouldn't what leaves the plant be stable, non radioactive material? I agree with theory process on the above comment, waste could be used as another fuel source right?
 
  • #527
Teen4Ideas said:
I just understand how there is nuclear waste, I've been taught that radioactive materials are radioactive because they are inherently UNSTABLE, unstable material is needed for a fission reaction, so why is there waste? Shouldn't what leaves the plant be stable, non radioactive material? I agree with theory process on the above comment, waste could be used as another fuel source right?

As far as it goes you are correct, but the difficulty is that you need to read up a lot on the nature of the different types of instability involved. By way of analogy, think of nitroglycerine and of coal burning in air. Both release energy by oxidation and reduction of fuels, in other words, by exploiting instability of oxidants and reductants in contact. Both produce largely similar reaction products. And yet, coal would make a lousy material for blasting in mines, and nitroglycerine a lousy material for warming your stove.
OK?
Now, the nuclear instabilities in question are, as you realize, the source of energy, whether for bombs, power stations, or poisoning dissident Russians. Roughly they might be classed into two types:
  • nuclear decay, which is what you get from unstable isotopes, and which proceeds in terms of half-life, each nucleus undergoing (usually) minor alterations at a random time while minding its own business and ignoring its neighbours and not doing anything on the lines of a chain reaction. Think radium, strontium 90, tritium and so on.
  • nuclear burning, to which most radioactivity is only tangentially relevant, in which the nuclei undergo massive changes, either fission (splitting if you like) or fusion (joining, if you like) in which not only a lot of energy is given off, but particles that shoot off and split or fuse neighbouring nuclei that otherwise might have sat minding their own business. If this tickling up of your neighbour is effective enough, say every splitting/fusing atom causing two more to react, then we get a what we call positive feedback -- the faster it blows, the faster it grows. This is sometimes called a chain reaction and for serious power production, an effective, efficient chain reaction is crucial, either uncontrolled in a bomb, or carefully dripped out as in a power station.
Now, all the nuclear fuels in a fission reactor happen to be radioactive, but that is simply because only very, very heavy nuclei are any good for splitting, and all nuclei more massive than lead (even bismuth it seems nowadays) are at least slightly radioactive anyway. Most of their fission products are incidentally radioactive, usually intensely so, meaning that they don't last long, but the point is not that they are active, which has nothing to do with chain reactions. What does matter is that they are too light to undergo any useful fission and therefore support no chain reaction. In fact they tend to interfere with the main chain reaction and we speak of them as poisons, that we have to get rid of before we can use the remaining fuel.

At the light element end, where we can fuse hydrogen, lithium and similar nuclei,the process differs in detail, but the principle remains the same. Only the lightest nuclei are useful in fusion and the products ("ash") of the burn are either useless or a nuisance.

So I hope that helps you understand that it is not the instability of the "ash" that matters, but the fact that it is not suited for "burning" because it cannot support a chain reaction. It does in fact give off heat and particles in quantities that continuously grow smaller (half-life) till we get an inert product, but the heat, though valuable in space vehicles etc, is too little to be valuable for bulk use in power stations.
 
  • #528
Spent fuel rods still contain a lot of unburned Uranium, and that is in fact recycled into fresh fuel rods.
The remaining 'ash' as has been pointed out, while it is radioactive, it isn't sufficiently radioactive to contribute to maintaining a self perpetuating fission reaction, and if anything interferes with the Uranium chain reaction.
Some of the waste by products can be separated and are useful in medical treatments and other applications, others can be processed in special reactors and transformed into stuff that can be useful.
Much of the waste has no potential use that we presently know of though, so the only thing that can be done is to lock it up in a safe storage facility where it doesn't pose a hazard.
 
  • #529
Just want to add that when rootone says

"Spent fuel rods still contain a lot of unburned Uranium, and that is in fact recycled into fresh fuel rods"

it is important to understand that "spent" in this sense never meant "burnt up", but "containing too much 'poison' to be profitable to go on using like this".
The reprocessing then does nothing to the fuel uranium or plutonium or whatever elements we were burning, or that got produced in the fission process, it just removes the "ash", the fission products that would absorb the neutrons that otherwise would keep the chain reaction going.
 
  • #530
rootone said:
Spent fuel rods still contain a lot of unburned Uranium, and that is in fact recycled into fresh fuel rods.
Can be recycled, not necessarily is.
 
  • #531
mheslep said:
Can be recycled, not necessarily is.
Sure, some nuclear power operators do this and others don't.
Personally I can't think of why it isn't done by all as a matter of routine.
I would have thought that the cost of recycling the usable Uranium in used fuel rods would be less than producing new rods from raw Uranium ore,
but I guess the decision not to recycle in some cases must have something to do with economics ultimately.
 
  • #532
Jon Richfield said:
Both release energy by oxidation and reduction of fuels, in other words, by exploiting instability of oxidants and reductants in contact. Both produce largely similar reaction products. And yet, coal would make a lousy material for blasting in mines, and nitroglycerine a lousy material for warming your stove.

Jon Richfield - i like that analogy, in fact i use a similar one for my non-science friends.

""
A campfire burns cellulose. So does a stick of dynamite. But they're put together differently.

Had the bomb evolved out of the power reactor instead of the other way 'round, people would say:
'What a dreadful thing to do with perfectly good Uranium, scattering it allover the countryside like that. You can make electricity with of that stuff. '
""
 
Last edited:
  • #533
Teen4ideas

are you a student ?
you might enjoy poking around this page
http://www.nndc.bnl.gov/chart/reZoom.jsp?newZoom=7

it's sort of like the periodic chart you studied in chemistry but it shows all the isotopes .
Vertical axis is number of protons, which define what chemcal element it is.
Horizontal axis is number of neutrons, which determines which isotope of any element you are looking at.
The black line up the middle is all the stable isotopes, the rest are unstable .
How to use it:
example
in lower left click on 1H (Hydrogen), then on right side panel click "zoom 1"
you should see black squares for 1H and 2H, plain hydrogen and deuterium as in heavy water.
both are stable, and the numbers tell you natural hydrogen is is 99.9885% 1H and 0.0115% 2H.

Small wonder heavy water was so scarce in WW2...

3H is tritium with 12.32 year halflife
4H and 5H i never noticed before. I think they immediately emit neutrons thereby turning into tritium.

You've heard of Carbon 14, check that one out...have fun exploring

old jim
 
  • #534
jim hardy said:
Had the bomb evolved out of the power reactor instead of the other way 'round, people would say:
'What a dreadful thing to do with perfectly good Uranium, scattering it allover the countryside like that. You can make electricity with of that stuff. '
""
Nice line Jim! :smile:
 
  • #535
rootone said:
Personally I can't think of why it isn't done by all as a matter of routine.
I would have thought that the cost of recycling the usable Uranium in used fuel rods would be less than producing new rods from raw Uranium ore,
but I guess the decision not to recycle in some cases must have something to do with economics ultimately.
Right, plus politics. The nuke-killer nuts want to vitrify everything, good bad and potential, and bury it halfway down the mantle.
But there also are practical considerations. There is more fissile fuel in the spent fuel than we usually have capacity for using at anyone time and it contains a lot of isotopes, including "poisons" that accumulate in even highly purified reprocessed fuel, so once it is cleaned it is best used ASAP, if you don't want to do it all over again before you can use it.
Another thing is that while it is still full of highly radioactive "ash" it is practically unhandleable and hard to hijack for terrorist purposes.
So it is sensible to retain the dirty material as safely as practical while it cools down and decays into comparative safety until there is a need for it. Then you can recycle the fuel for use while it is still fresh and clean and crusty, and process the rest of the material into compactly storeable form, partly for safety till it decays, partly in case a use for it arises, and partly because if there are any particularly undesirable isotopes in it, they can be exposed to convenient sources of neutron radiation to accelerate their final decay.
Incidentally, except where they are used purely as sources of decay heat, the value of nuclear fuels is independent of how radioactive they are. They really are valued according to how fissionable or fusible they might be. In most contexts their radioactivity is a nuisance except when the decay products (usually neutrons, occasionally alpha particles) are needed to support fission or some types of fusion.
 
  • #536
rootone said:
Sure, some nuclear power operators do this and others don't.
Personally I can't think of why it isn't done by all as a matter of routine.
I would have thought that the cost of recycling the usable Uranium in used fuel rods would be less than producing new rods from raw Uranium ore,
but I guess the decision not to recycle in some cases must have something to do with economics ultimately.
The nuclear power operators themselves do not perform the recycling/reprocessing, but rather spent/used fuel is sent to a reprocessor. In reprocessing, the fuel is basically dissolved, the fission products are separated and chemically formed into a stable configuration (immobilized), and the unused U and Pu is reformed into usuable fuel. All that is done remotely due to the radiation levels, which are many time greater than the ore. Remote handling greatly increases the cost of the fuel, and the disposition of the inventory of radionuclides (fission products) as opposed to mine tailings is a significant cost.

Right now, uranium ore is inexpensive, and the cost of fuel from virgin UO2 is much less than recycled U and (U,Pu) MOX. The structural materials, i.e., the Zr-alloy or SS-alloy cladding and supporting structure are the same.
 
  • Like
Likes Jon Richfield
  • #537
rootone said:
Sure, some nuclear power operators do this and others don't.
Personally I can't think of why it isn't done by all as a matter of routine.
I would have thought that the cost of recycling the usable Uranium in used fuel rods would be less than producing new rods from raw Uranium ore,
but I guess the decision not to recycle in some cases must have something to do with economics ultimately.

Reprocessed Uranium costs more than natural one, and it has slightly worse characteristics. It contains some U isotopes which don't occur in natural U, and these isotopes aren't very good at fission. IOW: 5% enriched reprocessed U is approximately equivalent to 4.5% enriched natural U. Since enrichment for civilian power reactors is capped at 5%, you can't "simply" use 5.5% enriched reprocessed U. It's not allowed. Thus, fuel fabricated from reprocessed U would be somewhat less efficient that one from natural U.
 
  • #538
nikkkom said:
Reprocessed Uranium costs more than natural one, and it has slightly worse characteristics. It contains some U isotopes which don't occur in natural U, and these isotopes aren't very good at fission. IOW: 5% enriched reprocessed U is approximately equivalent to 4.5% enriched natural U. Since enrichment for civilian power reactors is capped at 5%, you can't "simply" use 5.5% enriched reprocessed U. It's not allowed. Thus, fuel fabricated from reprocessed U would be somewhat less efficient that one from natural U.
That's true for the most part. However, in the case of MOX (U,PU) fuel, the Pu-content is necessarily greater than 5% (more like 6 to 8%), but equivalent to 5% U-235, in order to compensate for the parasitic absorption of isotopes like Pu-240.

Research reactors, e.g., BR-3, could (can) and did use higher enrichments, 8 to 10%, for special fuel programs. Some research reactors used up to 20%, which is down from higher enrichments in the past.

Obviously, research reactors have different purposes, e.g., research or isotope production, than commercial reactors, which are generally used for base-load electrical supply. Some commercial reactors may be used to produce certain isotopes like Co-60.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Jon Richfield
  • #539
So as things stand with current reprocessing technology, there just isn't a cost effective way to get most of the U235 out of used fuel rods without it having an admixture of unwanted isotopes.
I guess it might be feasible to do it in principle, but on economic grounds it's considered that this process takes an unreasonable amount of time and energy to do it.
There ARE however facilities in a fair number of countries where they do actually do this, and they wouldn't bother if the economic argument against was fully conclusive, what would be the point?
 
  • #540
rootone said:
So as things stand with current reprocessing technology, there just isn't a cost effective way to get most of the U235 out of used fuel rods without it having an admixture of unwanted isotopes.
I guess it might be feasible to do it in principle, but on economic grounds it's considered that this process takes an unreasonable amount of time and energy to do it.
There ARE however facilities in a fair number of countries where they do actually do this, and they wouldn't bother if the economic argument against was fully conclusive, what would be the point?

The point is (1) to reduce the amount of waste and (2) natural U is not a particularly abundant resource. It can become much more expensive in the future.
 
  • #541
rootone said:
So as things stand with current reprocessing technology, there just isn't a cost effective way to get most of the U235 out of used fuel rods without it having an admixture of unwanted isotopes.
I guess it might be feasible to do it in principle, but on economic grounds it's considered that this process takes an unreasonable amount of time and energy to do it.
There ARE however facilities in a fair number of countries where they do actually do this, and they wouldn't bother if the economic argument against was fully conclusive, what would be the point?
Each nation has to look at its indigenous resources, e.g., plentiful U/Th supply, and at the back end costs (i.e., disposition of spent fuel or fission products). Some countries, like the US and Canada, have abundant U resources, while nations like France, UK and Japan, do not. The latter group are more likely to reprocess than the former.
 
  • Like
Likes Jon Richfield
  • #542
There's a book, "The Curve of Binding Energy" by John Mcphee, describing proliferation concerns that brought about a halt of US progress toward reprocessing.
McPhee writes on diverse subjects.
His "Survival of the Birch Bark Canoe" is another fun read.
 
  • #543
Veteran nuclear engineer Charles Forsberg from MIT, ORNL, is the principal investigator for a very interesting nuclear concept here, called the FHR for Flouride salt High temperature Reactor. Molten salt cooled, pebble-bed fueled, high temperature. These features have been explored before. The novel aspect with the FHR is the hybridization with gas and/or heat storage to allow a peaking capability of 140%, which would allow the reactor-hybrid to work well with intermittent power. Its compelling. Efficiency 66% with combined cycle.

The inherent safety advantages of molten-salt are contradicted, to a degree I think, by the selection of a solid fuel as a opposed to fuel contained in the salt which can be gravity drained away for the core.

Abstract
The Fluoride-salt-cooled High-Temperature Reactor (FHR) with a Nuclear Air-Brayton Combined Cycle (NACC) and Firebrick Resistance Heated Energy Storage (FIRES) is a new reactor concept. It is designed to (1) increase revenue relative to base-load nuclear power plants by 50 to 100%, (2) enable a zero-carbon nuclear-renewable electricity grid, and (3) eliminate the potential for major fuel failures in severe accidents. With the reactor operating at base-load the plant can (1) deliver base-load electricity to the grid, (2) deliver peak electricity to the grid using auxiliary natural gas or stored heat at times of high electricity prices, or (3) buy electricity when electricity prices are below that of natural gas and store as heat for peak power production at a later time. The system may provide grid electricity storage to replace pumped hydro storage, batteries, and other devices. These capabilities are a consequences of (1) coupling the FHR (high-temperature gas-cooled reactor fuel and liquid salt coolant) to a gas turbine, (2) advances in gas turbine technology, and (3) advances in high-temperature fuels. MIT leads a university consortium with the University of California at Berkeley and the University of Wisconsin to develop the reactor. The Chinese Academy of Science plans to start up a 10 MWt test reactor by 2020. As a new reactor concept there are significant uncertainties and major development work is required.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #544
Astronuc said:
That's true for the most part. However, in the case of MOX (U,PU) fuel, the Pu-content is necessarily greater than 5% (more like 6 to 8%), but equivalent to 5% U-235, in order to compensate for the parasitic absorption of isotopes like Pu-240.

Technically, producing fuel rods from repU with 5.5% u238 enrichment is not a problem.

The problem is regulatory: this is not an approved kind of fuel.

Yes, it can be approved. But bureaucrats surely will make lives of everyone involved in certifying that (or anything else, for that matter) a nightmare. A long one. Think five years of paperwork, with small admixtures of occasional _actual_ useful work (such as running computer simulations, to prove something you are nearly certain of anyway: that this fuel is basically equivalent to 5% enriched natural U).
 
  • #545
nikkkom said:
Technically, producing fuel rods from repU with 5.5% u238 enrichment is not a problem.
Well, enrichment usually refers to the fissile isotopes, specifically U-235, which is about 0.71% in natural U, but increased up to 5% in commercial nuclear (LWR) fuel. It is certainly regulatory, and the regulations are based on criticality control. Some shops have had licenses in the past for >5% for certain special programs in commercial fuel, just as some shops currently have licenses for highly enriched (≥ 20%) U-235, but that fuel is used in research, or otherwise special, reactors, not commercial reactors.

For U with less than 0.71% U-235 is considered depleted U.

Reprocessed uranium (RepU) has been used in Germany and France.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Fuel-Recycling/Processing-of-Used-Nuclear-Fuel/
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Fuel-Recycling/Mixed-Oxide-Fuel-MOX/

Reprocessing of 1050 tonnes of French used fuel per year (about 15 years after discharge) produces 10.5 tonnes of plutonium (immediately recycled as 124 tonnes of MOX) and 1000 tonnes of reprocessed uranium (RepU). Of this about two-thirds is converted into stable oxide form for storage. One-third of the RepU is re-enriched and EdF has demonstrated its use in 900 MWe power reactors.
http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/TE_1630_CD/PDF/IAEA-TECDOC-1630.pdf

I've participated in projects involving RepU and MOX.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Jon Richfield
  • #547
Materials for Nuclear Plants
From Safe Design to Residual Life Assessments
Authors: Hoffelner, Wolfgang
http://www.springer.com/us/book/9781447129141

This is a reasonably good book on nuclear materials and is fairly comprehensive with respect to materials and reactor designs. It provides a good introduction and overview for those not familiar with the subject. One could write book on each material system, as well as on each chapter in the textbook.

It is important (even critical) to distinguish between in-core and ex-core systems and materials. The neutron irradiation environment has a profound effect on materials vis-à-vis irradiation damage (changes to microstructure) and transmutation. Although the textbook includes a comment attributed to reference 2, "Only minor differences between nuclear and non-nuclear applications exist," in my experience, there is nothing minor about the in-core environment.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Jon Richfield
  • #548
A reasonably accurate list of canceled nuclear reactors in the US.

http://www.rogerwitherspoon.com/docs/cancellednukeplants.pdf
 
  • #549
Those canceled reactors roughly tally at ~110 GWe? Modern up-rates probably take them to ~120 GWe, i.e. would have more than doubled US nuclear power capacity.
 
Back
Top