The Nuclear Power Thread

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The discussion centers on the pros and cons of nuclear power, particularly in light of Germany's decision to phase out its nuclear reactors. Advocates argue that nuclear energy is a crucial, low-emission source of electricity that could help mitigate air pollution and combat climate change, while opponents raise concerns about radioactive waste, environmental impacts, and the potential for catastrophic accidents. The debate highlights the need for advancements in nuclear technology, such as safer reactor designs and better waste management solutions. Additionally, there is a philosophical discussion on the societal perception of risk and the value of human life in the context of energy production. Overall, the thread emphasizes the complexity of energy policy and the ongoing need for informed dialogue on nuclear power's role in future energy strategies.
  • #481
A relatively new development in aneutronic p+B11 fusion.

. . . .
A team led by Christine Labaune, research director of the CNRS Laboratory for the Use of Intense Lasers at the Ecole Polytechnique in Palaiseau, France, used a two-laser system to fuse protons and boron-11 nuclei. One laser created a short-lived plasma, or highly ionized gas of boron nuclei, by heating boron atoms; the other laser generated a beam of protons that smashed into the boron nuclei, releasing slow-moving helium particles but no neutrons. The researchers describe their work in Nature Communications today.
. . . .
Timing was crucial for the success of the experiment, says study co-author Johann Rafelski, a theoretical physicist at the University of Arizona in Tucson. The boron plasma generated by the laser lasts only about one-billionth of a second, and so the pulse of protons, which lasts one-trillionth of a second, must be precisely synchronized to slam into the boron target. The proton beam is preceded by a beam of electrons, generated by the same laser, that pushes away electrons in the boron plasma, allowing the protons more of a chance to collide with the boron nuclei and initiate fusion.

. . .
http://www.nature.com/news/two-laser-boron-fusion-lights-the-way-to-radiation-free-energy-1.13914

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3506/full/ncomms3506.html
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #482
Congratulations to the team for their successful demonstration. Are there any energy in/energy out calculations for the experiment? And a fortiriori, for a scaled up actual power producing reactor?
 
  • #483
From the abstract alone I'm not clear what contribution is made by this work at CNRS on fusion. Fusion with p+B11 has been done long ago with accelerators and targets, and beam fusion of any kind has no path to net power. Is the contribution purportedly in the use of lasers?
 
  • #484
  • #485
If everyone here will pardon my ignorance as a non-physicist, could someone please tell me why it is necessary for the B11 to be in plasma form? The protons certainly, but is there some subtle resonance that bulk boron lacks that is necessary for the nuclear fusion and subsequent fission? It is not as if the resultant He4 would form any persistent ash or poison, surely?
 
  • #486
Jon Richfield said:
If everyone here will pardon my ignorance as a non-physicist, could someone please tell me why it is necessary for the B11 to be in plasma form? The protons certainly, but is there some subtle resonance that bulk boron lacks that is necessary for the nuclear fusion and subsequent fission? It is not as if the resultant He4 would form any persistent ash or poison, surely?
It's a consequence of the process and the temperature.
 
  • #487
The Czech utility CEZ has canceled plans for 2 additional nuclear units at Temelin. The economics have changed.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-CEZ-cancels-Temelin-expansion-tender-1004144.html

One of the designs was an advanced VVER (MIR-1200 or AES-2006; ~1200 MWe gross, ~1115 MWe net), which was competing against the AREVA EPR (1600 MWe) and Toshiba/Westinghouse AP1000 (1150 MWe).

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/C-Vendors-react-to-Czech-cancellation-2204141.html

http://www.iaea.org/INPRO/7th_Dialogue_Forum/Rosatom_1.pdf

http://www.mir1200.cz/en/design-solution/references/index.shtml
http://www.mir1200.cz/en/design-solution/main-components/reactor/index.shtml

http://www.cez.cz/en/power-plants-a...e-temelin-nuclear-power-plant/technology.html
 
  • #488
Hmmm... "The economics have changed" huh? Watch this space. Short term there is some sort of kerfuffle building up to the South East on the fringes of a lagoon off the Med that affects gas markets; there is a general fuss about carbon burning coinciding with all sorts of shutting down of nukes, there is a huge political AND technical wrangle about fracking and a lot of credibility gap about renewables...
Any bets about how often and in which directions the economics change again?
I know about the long-term directions for us to get serious (adequate) amounts of power, but there will always be politics and "economics" in the way.
 
  • #489
Some information on the evolution of BWR reactors and the ABWR.

http://www.hitachi-hgne-uk-abwr.co.uk/downloads/UKABWR-GA91-9901-0034-00001-REVA_C2a_Public.pdf
 
  • #490
ASME said:
When the first edition of Section III of the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code appeared 50 years ago, it provided rules for three classes of pressure vessels for nuclear power plants.

This was, however, the birth of an industry, an entire supply chain that would eventually provide one-fifth of the electricity consumed annually by the United States. So it quickly became apparent that the industry needed to address many issues besides the design and construction of the reactor vessels. More guidance was needed—and welcomed—by the industry and other stakeholders.

Section III eventually grew to encompass rules governing the construction and inspection during the building of storage tanks, piping, pumps, valves, containments, and other components of nuclear power plants. The code also addresses containment systems for storage and transport packaging of spent fuel and high-level radioactive material and waste.

Read more - https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/nuclear/a-group-effort-that-grew

Topics on Nuclear Energy
https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/nuclear-power
 
  • #492
Thorium

Safety and Regulatory Issues of the Thorium Fuel Cycle

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML1405/ML14050A083.pdf

Note the authors are from ORNL.

Thorium has been widely considered an alternative to uranium fuel because of its relatively large natural abundance and its ability to breed fissile fuel (233U) from natural thorium (232Th). Possible scenarios for using thorium in the nuclear fuel cycle include use in different nuclear reactor types (light water, high temperature gas cooled, fast spectrum sodium, molten salt, etc.), advanced accelerator-driven systems, or even fission-fusion hybrid systems. The most likely near-term application of thorium in the United States is in currently operating light water reactors (LWRs). This use is primarily based on concepts that mix thorium with uranium (UO2 + ThO2), add fertile thorium (ThO2) fuel pins to LWR fuel assemblies, or use mixed plutonium and thorium (PuO2 + ThO2) fuel assemblies.
And FYI - Regulation of Radioactive Materials
http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiation/protects-you/reg-matls.html
 
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  • #493
I'm curious how the breeding chain in a solid fuel Th based breeder works. That is, I understood that once the Th232 breeds into Pa233, the Pa then had to be continually removed from the core while it decayed in days to U233, else a high fraction was likely to undergo neutron capture. Continual removal of Pa233 is a resolvable chemical and plumbing problem in a molten reactor, but I don't follow how it is possible in a solid fueled LWR.
 
  • #494
mheslep said:
I'm curious how the breeding chain in a solid fuel Th based breeder works. That is, I understood that once the Th232 breeds into Pa233, the Pa then had to be continually removed from the core while it decayed in days to U233, else a high fraction was likely to undergo neutron capture. Continual removal of Pa233 is a resolvable chemical and plumbing problem in a molten reactor, but I don't follow how it is possible in a solid fueled LWR.
I'll try to find some information on Th-U233 programs.

Meanwhile - the Lightbridge patents on a Th-inspired novel fuel design for LWR and CANDU fuel.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20110255651
http://www.google.com/patents/US20130322591
http://www.google.com/patents/US20110311016

http://apps.shareholder.com/sec/vie...=AMDA-16UEEM&docid=9884078#FORM10K_HTM_PAGE_5 (see page 7)
KEY FUEL DEVELOPMENTS IN 2013
 
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  • #495
mheslep said:
I'm curious how the breeding chain in a solid fuel Th based breeder works. That is, I understood that once the Th232 breeds into Pa233, the Pa then had to be continually removed from the core while it decayed in days to U233, else a high fraction was likely to undergo neutron capture. Continual removal of Pa233 is a resolvable chemical and plumbing problem in a molten reactor, but I don't follow how it is possible in a solid fueled LWR.

In one of my graduate classes we wrote programs to simulate refueling of a thorium CANDU. The fissile material in this 'reactor' was U-233 at the discharge concentration (i.e. self sustaining in terms of fissile material, breeding ratio of 1). Note that this configuration gets terrible discharge burnup and you would likely want to include U-235 or Pu-239 rather than rely entirely on thorium in this configuration. We established a few strategies for improving U-233 yield and avoiding capture in Pa233. The first idea was to cycle fuel in and out of the reactor, such that the Pa233 is given time to decay to U-233. The optimal timing is just before a saturation concentration of Pa233 is reached. The second idea is low volumetric power (the decay-to-capture ratio is inversely proportional to the thermal neutron flux).

Obviously both these ideas have downsides. The first requires VERY frequent refueling which puts heavy demands on the refueling machines (currently a weak link in some Candu plants). It also requires large fuel inventories. The second idea hurts the capital cost of a plant (already a problem for CANDU units).

In our analysis, we decided to run at full power with no fancy refueling techniques. Our argument was that thorium is cheap and for this to work recycling/processing is clearly required and economic. If any of these things are not true, you should really be including more fissile material initially to increase burnup.
 
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  • #496
I am currently working on Thorium breeding in solid fuel. Just as with solid fuel breeding in Uranium, it sits in situ and breeds up, then is reprocessed to recover the fissile material. There is no reason that Pa must be cycled out fast, U234 production is really not a problem unless you are looking for bumb-grade material.
The thermal cross section for Pa233 is 140 ± 20 according to Halperin et. al 1956.
In my solid fuel Thorium ADEP study with CINDER, U233 to U234 is turning out to 1500:1 and U233 to Pa233 8.3:1 (3.15567E+07 S, FLUENCE (N/CM**2) =1.07628E+21, initial HM 95% Th232 5% Pu)
 
  • #497
Hologram0110 said:
In one of my graduate classes we wrote programs to simulate refueling of a thorium CANDU. The fissile material in this 'reactor' was U-233 at the discharge concentration (i.e. self sustaining in terms of fissile material, breeding ratio of 1). ...

In our analysis, we decided to run at full power with no fancy refueling techniques. Our argument was that thorium is cheap and for this to work recycling/processing is clearly required and economic. If any of these things are not true, you should really be including more fissile material initially to increase burnup.
Thanks for this.

It seems to me the problem would not be the waste of thorium, but the loss of a neutron on Pa-233, and another on the subsequent U-234, both with good capture cross section. With all that you still calculated a sufficient breeding ratio? Or is the answer to keep adding other fissile material until it does? If so then the design adds back the long lived actinides to the waste stream, the lack of which was one advantage of the thorium reactor.
 
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  • #498
mheslep said:
Thanks for this.

It seems to me the problem would not be the waste of thorium, but the loss of a neutron on Pa-233, and another on the subsequent U-234, both with good capture cross section. With all that you still calculated a sufficient breeding ratio? Or is the answer to keep adding other fissile material until it does? If so then the design adds back the long lived actinides to the waste stream, the lack of which was one advantage of the thorium reactor.
About 11% of neutrons captured by U233 produce U234 rather than fission, with a small amount of U234 coming from Pa234 decay. U234 is parasitic, but it's absorption by neutrons produces U-235, which is fissionable, although some forms U236, which leads to Np236, or n-capture to U237, which leads to Np237, but at much smaller levels than in LWR fuel containing U235 fissile material. Without U238, the transuranics are relatively low.

Breeder cores are designed with reflectors, since any core will 'leak' neutrons. So the reflector are used to reflect neutrons back to the active core, and use the neutrons that don't leak for converting fertile material to fissile material. The other benefit is to reduce neutron fluence to the containment/pressure vessel that holds the core.

Fuel Summary Report: Shippingport Light Water Breeder Reactor
http://www.inl.gov/technicalpublications/Documents/2664750.pdf

A summary of the Shippingport experience with thoria-based fuel. I communicated with the author for one project I did about 25 years ago.
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2009/ph204/coleman1/docs/10191380.pdfArticle in American Scientist - needs subscription or purchase.
http://www.americanscientist.org/my_amsci/restricted.aspx?act=pdf&id=36745203226947
The image shows 'green' pellets, i.e, the thoria-urania powder combined with binder and die lubricant has been pressed, usually to about 50-60% of theoretical density (TD) of the stoichiometric ceramic, and awaiting sintering, in a furnace at about 1700-1800 C. It will probably achieve ~95 to 96% of TD.

Criticism - http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/2010/6/not-so-fast-with-thorium

The criticism of the HTGR has nothing to do with thorium. It has to do with the fuel and reactor technology at the time, and the same would have happened with U-based fuel. Similarly, Shippingport was the first large LWR system to be devoted to commercial electricity. It was scheduled for shutdown, and researchers took advantage of it to load the core with thorium-based fuel as a demonstration. There were issues with the thorium fuel cycle at the time, mainly the breeding and reprocessing part, and some of those difficulties made it less attractive than the uranium-based fuel cycle. Of course, there were strong economic interests concerning the use of uranium.

We have learned a lot since then.
 
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  • #499
mheslep said:
Thanks for this.

It seems to me the problem would not be the waste of thorium, but the loss of a neutron on Pa-233, and another on the subsequent U-234, both with good capture cross section. With all that you still calculated a sufficient breeding ratio? Or is the answer to keep adding other fissile material until it does? If so then the design adds back the long lived actinides to the waste stream, the lack of which was one advantage of the thorium reactor.

The sustaining fuel was actually a pretty poor performer, this was just an academic exercise. The discharge burn-up was very low meaning it would generate large volumes of waste (because the initial U-233 concentration is so low).

Assuming a simple thermal flux it is possible to calculate how much Pa-233 captures a neutron instead of beta decay to U233. Pa-233 has a microscopic cross-capture cross-section of ~42.5 b and has a 27 day half-life (decay constant = 2.97e-07 /s). Therefore the ratio is 42.5e-28*Φ/2.97e-07 =
1.43E-20*Φ (where the flux is neutrons per meter squared per second). Thus the lower the neutron flux the greater the conversion ratio. Obviously if you want to account for energy dependence of the neutrons this gets more complicated, but this should give you an idea.
 
  • #500
Hologram0110 said:
...

Assuming a simple thermal flux it is possible to calculate how much Pa-233 captures a neutron instead of beta decay to U233. Pa-233 has a microscopic cross-capture cross-section of ~42.5 b and has a 27 day half-life (decay constant = 2.97e-07 /s). Therefore the ratio is 42.5e-28*Φ/2.97e-07 =
1.43E-20*Φ (where the flux is neutrons per meter squared per second). Thus the lower the neutron flux the greater the conversion ratio. Obviously if you want to account for energy dependence of the neutrons this gets more complicated, but this should give you an idea.
I think the main consideration is not per-se the cross-section of Pa-233, but rather its cross-section *versus* that of the fertile Th-232: Pa-233 cross-section is five times that of Th-232 (7.4 b, thermal). If the generated Pa-233 is never removed from the reactor, continued breeding of U-233 must become unsustainable.
 
  • #501
mheslep said:
I think the main consideration is not per-se the cross-section of Pa-233, but rather its cross-section *versus* that of the fertile Th-232: Pa-233 cross-section is five times that of Th-232 (7.4 b, thermal). If the generated Pa-233 is never removed from the reactor, continued breeding of U-233 must become unsustainable.

I do not follow. Assuming the Th-232 makes up the bulk of the fuel, its concentration is effectively static. This means that the Pa-233 will eventually reach an equilibrium concentration which depends on the reactor flux (it both decays and transmutes) - therefore it doesn't increase indefinately. Are you concerned about the Pa-233 acting as a neutron poison lowering the reactivity of the fuel at the equilibrium concentration? If that is the case you simply need more fissile material to counteract the negative reactivity due to Pa-233. Yes at some point the fuel needs to be replaced just like any other fuel.

Perhaps I was unclear about what I meant by self sustaining fuel. This didn't mean self sustaining without reprocessing. It means the discharge concentration of your fissile material is roughly the initial concentration. Therefore reprocessing involves removing the fission products and topping up the fertile material (Th-232 in this case).
 
  • #502
mheslep said:
I think the main consideration is not per-se the cross-section of Pa-233, but rather its cross-section *versus* that of the fertile Th-232: Pa-233 cross-section is five times that of Th-232 (7.4 b, thermal). If the generated Pa-233 is never removed from the reactor, continued breeding of U-233 must become unsustainable.
One has to look at the macroscopic cross section, which is the product of atomic density, N, and microscopic cross section, ##\sigma##. The initial concentration of Pa-233 would be nil, and it builds up over time, but as Hologram indicated, it's a small fraction of the total atoms and there is still much more Th-232.

Update: Role of Thorium to Supplement Fuel Cycles of Future Nuclear Energy Systems
http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/Pub1540_web.pdf
 
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  • #503
MIT NSE Optimistic about the future of fusion power
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/sites/mit.edu.newsoffice/files/styles/article_cover_image_small/public/images/2014/lester-delfavero-hartwig-whyte.JPG?itok=wnYKYo0D
In inaugural Del Favero Doctoral Thesis Prize Lecture, Zach Hartwig PhD '14 explains why fusion research should be at the top of NSE's agenda.
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/del-favero-lecture-zach-hartwig-future-fusion-power-1216
 
  • #505
hmmm article didn't say what is the agreement.
I pray it doesn't leave US taxpayers on the hook for mistakes over there.

Fukushima lies in the lap of whoever chose not to act on the information about 'recent' giant tidal waves there.
Product Liability laws bite from both ends -- Notice how fast the Toyota gas pedal issue disappeared after those GE plants blew up?
 
  • #506
mathman said:
There is at least one major unsolved problem with nuclear power. What do you do with the spent fuel? Right now it just accumulates at the various plant sites. Yucca mountain is still iffy as a long term solution.
well if anyone in power could get there heads out of there asses long enough to cough up the required funds we could just fire it off in the general direction of the sun and let it burn up the wast for us
using our current space going capacity and it would require almost no additional infrastructure at all just small high output propulsion system attached to a shielded (shielded against the nuclear radiation getting out and killing the astronauts who brought it into space with them) and a rudimentary guidance system
point it in the right direction and fire
And you have now solved all your nuclear wast problems.
 
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  • #507
Lee shannon said:
well if anyone in power could get there heads out of there asses long enough to cough up the required funds we could just fire it off in the general direction of the sun and let it burn up the wast for us
using our current space going capacity and it would require almost no additional infrastructure at all just small high output propulsion system attached to a shielded (shielded against the nuclear radiation getting out and killing the astronauts who brought it into space with them) and a rudimentary guidance system
point it in the right direction and fire
And you have now solved all your nuclear wast problems.
 
  • #508
Lee shannon said:
well if anyone in power could get there heads out of there asses long enough to cough up the required funds we could just fire it off in the general direction of the sun and let it burn up the wast for us
using our current space going capacity and it would require almost no additional infrastructure at all just small high output propulsion system attached to a shielded (shielded against the nuclear radiation getting out and killing the astronauts who brought it into space with them) and a rudimentary guidance system
point it in the right direction and fire
And you have now solved all your nuclear wast problems.

Two problems, one small, one big.
Small: there is no point to disposing of low and intermediate level waste in such an expensive manner. The stuff is pretty harmless even if it does escape, and it simply could be stored above-ground in any of umpteen ways that resist transport for a few centuries.
High level waste is indeed dangerous; hoisting it off-planet not only would be would be expensive, but unsafe as well until some genius works out how to do it with a flat guarantee of nothing falling back to Earth in the wrong form or the wrong place. (Did I hear someone say "Challenger"?)
Big: insisting on permanently sequestering or otherwise disposing of high level material such as spent fuel, whether by permanent sequestration or safe disposal, is criminally short-sighted; the fact that it is no longer suitable for use in the form for which it was fabricated, does not mean that it is not valuable or that it is replaceable or difficult to store safely. The demand that ALL high-level material be so sequestered that no trace or emanation ever could escape and that no one ever could stumble over it in the millions of years that it would take its longest-lived isotopes or products to decay into less harmful forms than say natural potassium is not only unrealistic but irrelevant when the main risks are rather on the scale of decades and the volume of material is tiny, which generally is the case.

Almost the only really biologically dangerous isotope that offers any challenge to contain is tritium, and maybe some Na isotopes, and they are not much of a challenge, given their chemical nature and quantities. Instead of obsessively trying to bury them immediately and forever, the sane thing is to store the material where it can cool down till it is manageable to handle. That isn't terribly challenging; the history of theft of high-level waste is so encouraging that it inspires faith in the progressive improvement of human honesty.
Then why shouldn't we store it (above ground, I reckon, but conveniently in available chambers if someone insists) in a place that presents no marine or volcanic threats and that is reasonably weather-proof? Many desert nature reserves would be perfect. Most unapproachable nuclear hazards or processing or power plants are already de facto reserves. I live near a couple. They are great! And not unique either; ask naturalists that have inspected the evacuated regions round Chernobyl.
It would be important to catalog what is where, against the time that people begin to wonder where to get some of it out again for new use or re-use.
The storage medium should be in a form that could be extracted efficiently, but not rapidly, nor without special equipment, nor in particular inconspicuously. It should be indifferent to earthquake, fire or flood, and in particular to corrosion. Something like hundred-tonne cargo containers with special multiple walls and requiring special tools and much time to breach, and producing long-range distress signals if moved without approval, should do nicely. They even might be powered by waste heat from their own contents. Compared to alternatives such as vitrification (not to mention lifting into space) such storage would be dirt cheap and it all could be used up long before all the important half-lives had expired.
So who needs space launching or deep burial or indeed, long term storage at all? A few centuries should be plenty. Anything likely to survive after that, we could cheerfully burn down to inactivity in a high neutron flux unit.
 
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  • #509
@Astronuc in particular, but anyone is welcome. A question: I am keen on nukes, but am no nuclear engineer, and I had for long been under the impression that nuclear plants could be scrammed, typically by dumping them into enough water. Then came Fukushima. Wellll... there was a slight hiccup as Jim Hardy observed, concerning tsunamis, but not that the tsunamis never actually broke the plants badly. As I understand it the problem was
1: The tsunamis certainly did disrupt infrastructure in the region.
2: Water supply for scramming depended on the infrastructure.
All the other items I could have regarded with equanimity, but that combination struck me (a nuke freak, please note!) as simply crazy. To have ANY dependence on ANYTHING not fail-soft I would regard as totally nuts. So it would mean maintaining a reservoir of what... a million tonnes of water uselessly (pick a figure)? Under conditions that require no power to supply? And that would have cost how many millions of dollars extra? As compared to what the present rectification is costing and the direct harm that is accruing? (Never mind the political harm!)
SO: am I overlooking something?
And: let me guess: Fukushima is not the only place where fail-safe scramming is not available?
 
  • #510
As we understand the information from TEPCO, the operating reactors at Fukushima (Units 1, 2 and 3) did scram on signals related to the earthquake. The nuclear reaction did shutdown. BWR control rods are hydraulically operated, and all rods, as far as we know, were inserted as designed.

However, after a reactor shuts down, there are still fission products undergoing beta decay (or alpha decay for some transuranics), and gamma decay. The 'decay heat' must be removed by the coolant. After the coolant pumps shutdown, there should be a residual heat removal system that continues to circulate water to cool the reactor core. That heat is transferred through heat exchangers to the environment - in the case the ocean (other plants discharge heat to rivers, lakes or reservoirs, or in cooling towers to the atmosphere).

There is are simple overview of decay heat as it relates to the Fukushima reactors here - http://mitnse.com/2011/03/16/what-is-decay-heat/

Note the heat rate as a function of time after the accident.

The problem at Fukushima is that they lost the cooling of the reactor. It appears that some of the piping may have broken, in which case, water simply drained out of the pressure vessel without getting to the core. A core sitting in stagnant steam can get pretty hot, and in steam, oxidation may take place, and that is where the hydrogen would be generated. The hydrogen leaked out and ignited causing the explosions that further damaged the containment.

Without heat removal from the core, the fuel temperature continues to rise. I suspect there where chemical reactions between the fuel and coolant, and it's possible the fuel cladding and core structure began to melt. From the release of fission products, we know the fuel in the core was breached. Xe, Kr gases, and I, which is a volatile, were released, while most of the other fission products would dissolved in the water.
 
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