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The Present.

  1. Jul 7, 2003 #1
    There has been a little debate on the subject of "the present", and I'd like to try and clear that up (since I myself am a bit confused), if possible.

    There are some here, who believe that there is no such thing as the present, because there is no smallest incriment of time (or there is a smallest incriment, but our brains move way too slowly to actually concieve of it).

    However, my counter is that if there were no present, then we would all be in the future, and that is illogical. In fact, the very sentence "I am in the future" is semantically and logically retarded (since "I am" refers to your present state, and reference to the future would require a statement of the form "I will be").

    Now, that just shows that there must be a present, it doesn't explain what it is because, frankly, I'm not really sure.

    My current idea (off the top of my head) would be that the present is a complete memory of the revisions of experienced phenomena (which is what consciousness is) in the brain. IOW, all that the "present" really is is our memory (no matter how recent) of phenomenological experiences that happened in the past.

    Of course, this idea is probably way off - I have already found one flaw (namely, memories of the past must take place in the present, and so you still have no actual definition of the "present") - so I need some help on this.

    Any/all participation will be appreciated (note: not "is" appreciated :wink:).
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 7, 2003 #2
    From the movie, Slaughterhouse-Five, based upon the novel by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. This is one of my favorite movies, and comes highly recommended! If you follow the link it gives a general breakdown of the movie. If you get a chance rent it!

    While the following are a couple of book reviews from Amazon.Com ...

     
  4. Jul 7, 2003 #3
    I'd say most of you is in the past.
     
  5. Jul 7, 2003 #4
    If you think about it Mentat, the moment is all we have. We can only have our "beings" in the moment. The moment is Ever-Present and, "simply is." :wink:
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2003
  6. Jul 7, 2003 #5
    the present is only 3 dimions no time...or no time movement

    but seriously you have to be on maryjane to argue that the present dosent exist...or we dont exist either and acid to enjoy it...whoa my hand is purple and shifting...

    yea well the present is just a concept it is just now...no wait now. but really the present is just the corse of a few years or moments it's all realtive much like currancy it holds no actual value but us not existing that is a diffrent story
     
  7. Jul 7, 2003 #6
    For humans there is a human present. Anyone who says there is not is living in a conceptual dreamland. Arise my friends! Feel the now.
     
  8. Jul 8, 2003 #7
    i would agree with many here to say that not only does the present exist it is all that exists.

    i did a course in french literature a few years back called 'poetry of the instant' which was a big thing for late 19th century poets, they believed that only the instant, or absolute present, can define your life in any meaningful way. they were so into it they defined all time and eternity as a reflection of the instant.
     
  9. Jul 8, 2003 #8
    So you are talking about purely human perception of present. Then it'd be imo natural to think about simple latency between actual events and when they get 'decoded' by our senses. Memory imo would be secondary storage that would get carbon copy for later reference.
    It is natural that pain in your toes will reach your mind later than pain in chest. Interestng is that thoughts and awareness of them should also have a latency. Thats quite a kick for idea of free will.

    Another interesting thought may be to consider that we as complex bodies fill specific quite large volume of 3D space. Now if we live in 4D spacetime, would that mean that we must also fill quite some larger portion of space and time also?
     
  10. Jul 8, 2003 #9
    Many of you have responded that the present must exist, and I agree, but what is the present? We can't exist in the future or the past, as I have proven to myself logically, and can defend if one should wish to argue it, but it seems that most of you accept that we exist in the present. So, now that we all agree on that point...what is this present, that we exist in? And how long does it last?
     
  11. Jul 8, 2003 #10
    Re: Re: The Present.

    Sort of. Actually, I'm talking about the present itself, which is what the human should be percieving. I mean, I know that phenomenologically experienced time is not the same as actual time, but I should assume that there must be a present, otherwise our brains would not be conscious of phenomenological time "right now" but would have to be conscious of it in the future or in the past (and both of those possibilities are out of the question, for obvious reasons).

    Sure, but memories are not actual things in the past, but are memories of the past, that are "brought up" in the present.

    How so?

    Well, we don't necessarily fill a "large" volume of space (it depends on your reference point), but (as I've shown in other threads) each point in time must correspond (or "run into") every point in space, otherwise things in one part of the Universe - spacially - might "not have happened yet".
     
  12. Jul 8, 2003 #11
    Did you know that we have to be conscious in order to remain in "the present?" Therefore it suggests it has something to do with consciousness, specifically. Perhaps it has something to do with "God's Presence," in the sense that He remains "Ever-Present?"
     
  13. Jul 8, 2003 #12
    No, and that is definitely not true (a rock is in "the present", isn't it?).

    Well, I can always depend on you to provide these kind of possibilities :wink:. Of course, they cannot be disproven, but we should - perhaps - leave them out for the time being, eh?
     
  14. Jul 8, 2003 #13
    Says who? The rock?


    Actually I could care less outside of this forum. But you know what they say, "Credit where credit is due."
     
  15. Jul 8, 2003 #14
    Re: Re: Re: The Present.

    Interestingly, maybe there is no present then. We can imagine one, that implies simultaneity, but GR says theres no such thing. Given that we are in same reference frame with same timeflow, we can think about syncronicity ;)

    Why? Does not 'approximately now' do? What you see is past. What you hear is hopelessly old stuff. You can perfectly deal with that. Why is then that concious right now should be more strictly defined? Don't think of it that strictly in terms of future or past. We can say, what happens now, you'll be aware of "later", and will perceive it as "right now".

    quantum processes flow magnitudes faster than chemical reactions, and by the time chemistry is done, alot of time passes. By the time you get aware of your thoughts later, huge 'masses' of matter have already moved. That doesn't exclude free will, of course, but hints that by the time you 'decide', it might have already been decided. Human reacts quickest when its automatism. Training gives that. After, reactions to external events happen without conciousness. When you have to 'think' how to drive formula-1, you'll 100% crash.

    Haven't seen it, and don't understand you. Maybe link to your post would help?
     
  16. Jul 8, 2003 #15

    drag

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor

    Greetings !

    What is this thread meant to ask/determine precisely ?

    Is there an eccepted definition of "the present" that
    we can all use here ?

    "Experiments can't prove something which is logically flawed."


    Live long and prosper.
     
  17. Jul 9, 2003 #16
    that's the nail hit on the head, it would seem that the present or any notion of time at all is only relevent to conscious beings, it's like asking a rock whether it's feeling cold. without the human measure of time everything might as well have already happened, it's the old idea that the universe uses humans to 'know itself'.

    is it not illogical to take this one step further, instead of saying we experience time/the present because we are conscious, maybe we are cosncious because we experience time
     
  18. Jul 9, 2003 #17
    Time is a measure of change. What is the one constant change in everything? Entropy. If you can prove that the rock posesses no entropy, then you have proved the rock posesses no change, thus, no time. If you cannot prove this then the rock does posess change, meaning time.
     
  19. Jul 9, 2003 #18
    "Says who?" is an irrelevant question, since 1) I said it; and 2) things have existed since the Big Bang, but consciousness (even primitive forms of it) is just a few million years old.
     
  20. Jul 9, 2003 #19
    Re: Re: Re: Re: The Present.

    There is a flaw in what you are saying: When different parts of your brain are processing the sound, it is the present. The light that enters your eyes is entering them in the present. Of course, your consciousness is rather "smeared" over time (because of the time it takes for the different operations of processing to take place), but that doesn't mean that there is no "present", wherein (for example) a beam of light hits your eye.

    That makes sense. I had been thinking of that myself, and I can't find a way around the fact that, if you are not conscious, you cannot percieve the present (that's not to say that the present doesn't exist, though that is possible), and consciousness doesn't really take place at any one given time...so perhaps "present" is an illusion.

    Well, all I explained (in so many words) was that time itself (the dimension of time) must intersect with all points of space, otherwise there would be only one point in space that was at all affected by time. Of course, I can't really conceive of what I'm saying, it just appears that it must be so.
     
  21. Jul 9, 2003 #20
    Oh, so now rocks have absolutely no temperature at all, until conscious beings evolve, right? Puh-lease! I agree that "the present" may be an illusion of time itself, but not things that have been shown to exist (like time itself, temperature, space, etc).
     
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