The Riemann and Darboux Integrals .... Browder, Theorem 5.10 .... ....

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around understanding the proof of Theorem 5.10 from Andrew Browder's "Mathematical Analysis: An Introduction," specifically regarding the necessity of a condition for the existence of the Riemann integral. Participants are exploring the definitions and implications of Riemann sums and the relationship between upper and lower sums in the context of integrability.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Homework-related
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Peter seeks clarification on demonstrating the necessity of a condition related to the existence of the Riemann integral, specifically regarding partitions and Riemann sums.
  • Some participants suggest that using the triangle inequality could help in proving the necessary condition, indicating a standard approach to such proofs.
  • A participant provides a detailed approach to the proof, outlining steps involving the selection of partitions and associated sums, but acknowledges potential overcomplication.
  • Peter expresses uncertainty about the implications of certain inequalities in his proof and questions whether his reasoning is correct.
  • Another participant points out that the implications Peter proposed do not follow, leading to a re-evaluation of his proof steps.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correctness of Peter's proof steps, as there is uncertainty regarding the implications of certain inequalities. Multiple viewpoints on how to approach the proof are present, indicating ongoing debate.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved mathematical steps in Peter's proof, particularly regarding the implications of inequalities and their relationships to the definitions provided in Browder's text.

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TL;DR
I need help to prove a theorem effectively equivalencing Riemann and Darboux integration ...
I am reading Andrew Browder's book: "Mathematical Analysis: An Introduction" ... ...

I am currently reading Chapter 5: The Riemann Integral and am currently focused on Section 5.1 Riemann Sums ... ...

I need some help in understanding the proof of Theorem 5.10 ...Theorem 5.10 and its proof read as follows:
Browder - 1 - Theorem 5.10 ... PART 1 ... .png

Browder - 2 - Theorem 5.10 ... PART 2 ... .png

At the start of the above proof by Browder we read the following:

" ... ... The necessity of the condition is immediate from the definition of the integral ... ... " Can someone please help me to rigorously demonstrate the necessity of the condition ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: I am assuming that proving "the necessity of the condition is proving the following:##\int_a^b f \text{ exists } \Longrightarrow## ... for every ##\epsilon \gt 0 \ \exists \ ## a partition ##\pi## of ##[a, b]## such that ##\overline{S} (f, \pi) - \underline{S} (f, \pi) \lt \epsilon## ... ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Help will be much appreciated ...

Peter
==========================================================================================Note: It may help Physics Forum readers of the above post to have access to Browder's notation, definitions and theorems on Riemann integration preliminary to Theorem 5.10 ... hence I am providing access to the same ... as follows:
Browder - 1 - Start of 5.1 - Relevant Defns & Propns ... PART 1 ... .png

Browder - 2 - Start of 5.1 - Relevant Defns & Propns ... PART 2 ... .png

Browder - 3 - Start of 5.1 - Relevant Defns & Propns ... PART 3 ... .png

Browder - 4 - Start of 5.1 - Relevant Defns & Propns ... PART 4 ... .png
Hope that text helps ...

Peter
 
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This would be a lot more readable if you just typed out the relevant definitions instead of a lot of images. That being said, here is how you can proceed (possibly I overcomplicated the matter though).

Let ##\epsilon > 0##. Choose ##\pi## as in the definition of integral such that for all corresponding ##\sigma## we have ##|S(f, \pi, \sigma)-I| < \epsilon/4##.

Since ##\overline{S}(f, \pi) = \sup\{S(f, \pi, \sigma): \sigma \mathrm{\ associated \ to \ \pi}\}##, we can select ##\sigma_1## such that ##\overline{S}(f, \pi)- S(f, \pi, \sigma_1)< \epsilon/4##. Similarly, one can choose ##\sigma_2## such that ##S(f, \pi, \sigma_2) - \underline{S}(f, \pi) < \epsilon/4##

Then ##\overline{S}(f, \pi) - \underline{S}(f, \pi) \leq |\overline{S}(f, \pi) - S(f,\pi, \sigma_1)| + |S(f, \pi, \sigma_1)-I| + |I-{S}(f, \pi, \sigma_2)|+ |S(f, \pi, \sigma_2)- \underline{S}(f, \pi, \sigma_2)| < \epsilon##

which is exactly what we want.
 
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Hi Peter,

a good strategy is always to write down what we have. Here we have that ##I:=\int_a^b f(x)\,dx## exists. Therefore we have to look at definition 5.4. which tells us ##|S(f,\pi,\sigma)-I|<\varepsilon_1\,##. Now we want to show that ##|\underline{S}(f,\pi)-\overline{S}(f,\pi)|<\varepsilon_2\,##.

Whenever we see something like ##|A-B|<\varepsilon ## then then triangle inequality lurks around the corner.
A standard procedure is now ##|A-B|=|A-C + (C-B)| \leq |A-C|+|B-C|## and the approximation of the two resulting summands to get an estimation of the original term.
 
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Thanks to fresh_42 and Math_QED for the hints ...

Based on your advice my proof proceeds as follows ...

We wish to prove:

##\int_a^b f \text{ exists } \Longrightarrow##] ... for every ##\epsilon \gt 0 \ \exists \ ## a partition ##\pi## of ##[a, b]## such that ##\overline{S} (f, \pi) - \underline{S} (f, \pi) \lt \epsilon## ... ...Proof:

Let ##\int_a^b f = I ##

Then

##I## exists ##\Longrightarrow## for any ##\frac{ \epsilon }{2} \gt 0 \ \exists \ \pi_0## such that for any ##\pi \geq \pi_0## and every selection ##\sigma## associated with ##\pi## we have ##| s(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I | \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##Now ##| S(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I | \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##

implies that

##- \frac{ \epsilon }{2} \lt S(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##

and so, obviously, we have that

##S(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}## ... ... ... ... ... (1)But ##| S(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I | \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##

... also implies that

##- \frac{ \epsilon }{2} \lt I - S(f, \pi, \sigma ) \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##

so, obviously, we have that

##I - S(f, \pi, \sigma ) \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}## ... ... ... ... ... (2)

Now we also have that

##\underline{S} (f, \pi) \leq S(f, \pi, \sigma ) \leq \overline{S} (f, \pi)## ... ... ... ... ... (3)Now (1) and (3) imply

##\overline{S} (f, \pi) - I \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}## ... ... ... ... ... (4)Similarly (2) and (3) imply

##I - \underline{S} (f, \pi) \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}## ... ... ... ... ... (5)Adding (4) and (5) gives

##\overline{S} (f, \pi) - \underline{S} (f, \pi) \lt \epsilon## ... ...
Is that basically correct?

Peter
 
Math Amateur said:
Thanks to fresh_42 and Math_QED for the hints ...

Based on your advice my proof proceeds as follows ...

We wish to prove:

##\int_a^b f \text{ exists } \Longrightarrow##] ... for every ##\epsilon \gt 0 \ \exists \ ## a partition ##\pi## of ##[a, b]## such that ##\overline{S} (f, \pi) - \underline{S} (f, \pi) \lt \epsilon## ... ...Proof:

Let ##\int_a^b f = I ##

Then

##I## exists ##\Longrightarrow## for any ##\frac{ \epsilon }{2} \gt 0 \ \exists \ \pi_0## such that for any ##\pi \geq \pi_0## and every selection ##\sigma## associated with ##\pi## we have ##| s(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I | \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##Now ##| S(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I | \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##

implies that

##- \frac{ \epsilon }{2} \lt S(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##

and so, obviously, we have that

##S(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}## ... ... ... ... ... (1)But ##| S(f, \pi, \sigma ) - I | \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##

... also implies that

##- \frac{ \epsilon }{2} \lt I - S(f, \pi, \sigma ) \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}##

so, obviously, we have that

##I - S(f, \pi, \sigma ) \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}## ... ... ... ... ... (2)

Now we also have that

##\underline{S} (f, \pi) \leq S(f, \pi, \sigma ) \leq \overline{S} (f, \pi)## ... ... ... ... ... (3)Now (1) and (3) imply

##\overline{S} (f, \pi) - I \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}## ... ... ... ... ... (4)Similarly (2) and (3) imply

##I - \underline{S} (f, \pi) \lt \frac{ \epsilon }{2}## ... ... ... ... ... (5)Adding (4) and (5) gives

##\overline{S} (f, \pi) - \underline{S} (f, \pi) \lt \epsilon## ... ...
Is that basically correct?

Peter

How do (1) and (3) imply (4)?

Similarly for (2) and (3) implies (5).
 
Hi Math_QED ...

Hmmm ... problem ... just checked ... the implications do not follow ... don't know what I was thinking ... apologies ..

Thanks again for your help ..

Peter
 
Math Amateur said:
Hi Math_QED ...

Hmmm ... problem ... just checked ... the implications do not follow ... don't know what I was thinking ... apologies ..

Thanks again for your help ..

Peter

No problem. A possible proof is in post #2.
 
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